vBulletin Nightmare

Excellente!!!

 

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? DON'T BE VAGUE. Point me to any reasonable notice. I was TOTALLY blindsided. Price going up... from what? $40 to $175? I didn't get a single email about the fact that if I bought a license on October 1 for $180 that I'd have to spend another $130 by October 30 or else I'd have to spend $175 or more just to get all the upgrades for vb4 through the vb5 release.

This is why IB thinks so many of its customers are a bunch of blinded, loyal suckers. Develop free plugins for "our community" and they get every dollar from every license sold and what do you get? Zippo - $175 will allow you to upgrade your forum and you get to place a link in your vb.org sig! You'll make excuses why an obvious confidence scheme is totally legitimate. The ONLY thing I asked for was fair and adequate disclosure. A notice to customers about the terms 30 days before this presale would have given everyone knowledge what to do and work out the kinks. NO - this was designed to be a panic filled episode designed to get as many people to rush to pull out credit cards as possible. Open your eyes.

EDIT: @gnatster and @rasbelin - EXACTLY. Many of us don't hang out in the forums. We actually WORK on developing our own forums, which this whole vb4 fiasco has us unable to properly plan development for the next several months. This is why they have CUSTOMER EMAIL ADDRESSES and they can send us notices THE SAME WAY they sent out notices for this PRESALE. And why do I have to listen to the rumor mill to find out what a company honestly intends to do? Do I have to hang out in the Microsoft forums, the adobe forums and my employer's forums just to figure out what the "official message" might be? Is the vBulletin executive team really the kids from South Park whose parents bought them this neat new company to run?

 

LOL...

 

ALL you had to do over the summer was login to the vb.com forums (or any forum related to vBulletin) and see what I was talking about, or become actually involved with the software you're dealing with. There were many, many discussions on many, many forums about this. We had plenty of warning that huge pricing change was coming.

As for them denying the leaks, they didn't. They tried to put them off as "rumor", but point me to one post which clearly stated "these are not true".

 

in all fairness i dont think any customer is obliged to get his news from unofficial sources thats why PR departments were born...

 

I'm sorry, but I find it unreasonable to expect that of customers.
A company such as IB should have NO trouble, informing its customers properly, on time and in an efficient manner. Communication is a huge part of their business after all.
Here, however, IB have failed worse than a one legged man at an a$$-kicking contest.

And just so I am not misunderstood:
I AM one of those customers who read the company forums and stay up to date. However, I find it unreasonable to expect all customers to do this.
If this leak was an intentional "warning" or "hint" of any kind - that would be extremely stupid, elitist and unfair. And no, I don't think that that was the motivation behind that "leak".
In the last 9 months, I have not made the experience that IB management don't intentionally inform their customers about much of anything (important).
Thank God for vBulletin.org and the support staff at vB-Germany and vB.com - the only things (and people) keeping my one last license with vBulletin.

 

I'm sorry, but I find it unreasonable to expect that of customers.
A company such as IB should have NO trouble, informing its customers properly, on time and in an efficient manner. Communication is a huge part of their business after all.
Here, however, IB have failed worse than a one legged man at an a$$-kicking contest.

And just so I am not misunderstood:
I AM one of those customers who read the company forums and stay up to date. However, I find it unreasonable to expect all customers to do this.
If this leak was an intentional "warning" or "hint" of any kind - that would be extremely stupid, elitist and unfair. And no, I don't think that that was the motivation behind that "leak".
In the last 9 months, I have not made the experience that IB management don't intentionally inform their customers about much of anything (important).
Thank God for vBulletin.org and the support staff at vB-Germany and vB.com - the only things (and people) keeping my one last license with vBulletin.

 

Do you know how many software I use? Not only on my web site, but computer, etc. Is it really expected that I go to every company web sites of products I use and read the forums every day to see if someone posted some hidden details of new pricing structures to stay up to date? I'm sorry, I have a full time job already... I expect the companies I have given my money to will keep me up to date by e-mailing me important information. They were happy to e-mail me the presale info, why not warn me ahead that I needed to keep my license up to date, as since it's now expired it's not worth anything?

That's why I checked the box that says "Allow administrators to e-mail me". Maybe you have nothing else to do in your life, so congrats to you, you saved a few dollars for spending your entire life reading the vb forums..

Now please... Stop trying to put the blame on the customers. It's obviously a lack of communication skills from the vb staff. I doubt IB told vb one day "Ok let's change the price right now and make the new home page in 10 seconds". They had time, they should've given PUBLIC warnings and informed EVERY customer, not just those who read their forums and the gossip about the company. Everyone blames IB but really, it's the vb staff that has failed in giving proper information to their customers. We're the ones paying their salary, after all, we deserve better than a slap in the face.

 

Do you know how many software I use? Not only on my web site, but computer, etc. Is it really expected that I go to every company web sites of products I use and read the forums every day to see if someone posted some hidden details of new pricing structures to stay up to date? I'm sorry, I have a full time job already... I expect the companies I have given my money to will keep me up to date by e-mailing me important information. They were happy to e-mail me the presale info, why not warn me ahead that I needed to keep my license up to date, as since it's now expired it's not worth anything?

That's why I checked the box that says "Allow administrators to e-mail me". Maybe you have nothing else to do in your life, so congrats to you, you saved a few dollars for spending your entire life reading the vb forums..

Now please... Stop trying to put the blame on the customers. It's obviously a lack of communication skills from the vb staff. I doubt IB told vb one day "Ok let's change the price right now and make the new home page in 10 seconds". They had time, they should've given PUBLIC warnings and informed EVERY customer, not just those who read their forums and the gossip about the company. Everyone blames IB but really, it's the vb staff that has failed in giving proper information to their customers. We're the ones paying their salary, after all, we deserve better than a slap in the face.

 

PR departments are nothing but spin. If you want proof of that, just look at how they're handling this

Who said anything about expecting it? I didn't expect anyone to do it? Yet, is it not in your best interest to keep up to date with the happenings of companies you do business with? I sure know it is in MINE.

I guess when it comes down to it, it's about using a bit of common sense. PR spin doctors spin things to the company's advantage. If you want the real story, it's up to you to go out there and get it. Some did, in this case, and it paid off hugely. Others did not, and it actually hurt them.

The warning was there, I never said intentionally placed by IB (that would be just stupid), but it was out there. We've known about the changes for 6 months now, and have had time to prepare for them, in whatever way possible.

Please, go back and re-read what I said. It is not my intention to put the blame of this on anyone but IB. Never, ever have I said that.

My point is that we knew about this 6 months ago. Plans should have been put in place then to deal with this.

Does this excuse IB? Absolutely not. What they're doing to clients, and what they're putting them through is absolutely, 100% horrible, and I feel for the clients affected. HOWEVER, the clients affected would have KNOWN this was coming if they even paid the slightest bit of attention to vB news.

Again, it is in your best interest to know what is going on with the products you deal with constantly. Operating Systems, major software (which vB is), etc.. All in your best interest. The information was out there, in multiple locations.

 

PR departments are nothing but spin. If you want proof of that, just look at how they're handling this

Who said anything about expecting it? I didn't expect anyone to do it? Yet, is it not in your best interest to keep up to date with the happenings of companies you do business with? I sure know it is in MINE.

I guess when it comes down to it, it's about using a bit of common sense. PR spin doctors spin things to the company's advantage. If you want the real story, it's up to you to go out there and get it. Some did, in this case, and it paid off hugely. Others did not, and it actually hurt them.

The warning was there, I never said intentionally placed by IB (that would be just stupid), but it was out there. We've known about the changes for 6 months now, and have had time to prepare for them, in whatever way possible.

Please, go back and re-read what I said. It is not my intention to put the blame of this on anyone but IB. Never, ever have I said that.

My point is that we knew about this 6 months ago. Plans should have been put in place then to deal with this.

Does this excuse IB? Absolutely not. What they're doing to clients, and what they're putting them through is absolutely, 100% horrible, and I feel for the clients affected. HOWEVER, the clients affected would have KNOWN this was coming if they even paid the slightest bit of attention to vB news.

Again, it is in your best interest to know what is going on with the products you deal with constantly. Operating Systems, major software (which vB is), etc.. All in your best interest. The information was out there, in multiple locations.

 

What I meant to point out is, that saying "well they have gone to the vB.com forums..." is not a valid argument.
This communications disaster is a failure of IB, period.

 

What I meant to point out is, that saying "well they have gone to the vB.com forums..." is not a valid argument.
This communications disaster is a failure of IB, period.

 

Going to vb.com would have only given you their spin on things. Every major forum I've been to (aside from AA, oddly enough) had a discussion on this back in May, when the leak was introduced. This was industry news, and definitely something that should have been followed.

Again, agreed, 100%. IB should have been more forthcoming with their clients from the beginning, but claiming "we didn't know" doesn't work here. You use twitter, right? Social networking sites? Major forums? This was all over those back in May / June (I forget when the leak was originally put out), and even all over google.

 

Going to vb.com would have only given you their spin on things. Every major forum I've been to (aside from AA, oddly enough) had a discussion on this back in May, when the leak was introduced. This was industry news, and definitely something that should have been followed.

Again, agreed, 100%. IB should have been more forthcoming with their clients from the beginning, but claiming "we didn't know" doesn't work here. You use twitter, right? Social networking sites? Major forums? This was all over those back in May / June (I forget when the leak was originally put out), and even all over google.

 

My point was more on the general principle of the thing rather than what IB is doing...

 

My point was more on the general principle of the thing rather than what IB is doing...

 

I should have consulted AT&T and Cox for the pricing increase of Comcast. I should have checked out DSLReports.com for the same reason. All the official information, no sorry, just plain information was with those places. Heck, even the local newspaper was inferring such pricing changes. I dare not go see the official place of the pricing changes to come.

But wait...no, it's irrelevant issue about the pricing increase....the point that you blatantly avoid is the execution of the Pre-sale. No where was a Pre-sale discussed, outed, reported, etc. aside from the OFFICIAL email sent to all vB license holders (owned and leased, etc.). Moreover, no mention of the duration of the Pre-sale and its tenets.

k, done now. thx bai

 

I should have consulted AT&T and Cox for the pricing increase of Comcast. I should have checked out DSLReports.com for the same reason. All the official information, no sorry, just plain information was with those places. Heck, even the local newspaper was inferring such pricing changes. I dare not go see the official place of the pricing changes to come.

But wait...no, it's irrelevant issue about the pricing increase....the point that you blatantly avoid is the execution of the Pre-sale. No where was a Pre-sale discussed, outed, reported, etc. aside from the OFFICIAL email sent to all vB license holders (owned and leased, etc.). Moreover, no mention of the duration of the Pre-sale and its tenets.

k, done now. thx bai

 

Without trying to offend you, what else do you do during the day? Do you run a web site that consists of more than forums or any business? This is NEVER the protocol.

(1) Ever hear of a customer mailing list? It's used to update customers on important issues, offers and any other customer related communication - all of which are OFFICIAL and not hundreds of hobbyists making guesses about what will be out when, where and how much. What is worse is that vB is letting customers run amok in their own forums and spreading all kinds of nonsense about savings, this, and that by not being manifestly clear.

(2) Your logic is so absurd that you're telling me that I should log in to unofficial forums that talk about vbulletin to get the news. I'm not even sure how to address this one.

(3) With regard to the HUGE pricing changes, until it's announced, it's all speculation. And the fact is that even if I had known about a rumor, nobody knew that buying a new license would cause you to have to buy an upgrade 2 weeks later at about 75% of what you just paid for a forum. If it's that outrageous a price upgrade, then you had better make it absofreakinglutely clear to customers and new purchasers that you are about to pound them in Borat's favorite orifice.

So let me get this straight - if the PR department offers a certain price with spin on it, you'll get the "official" price from an unofficial forum which will give you better information. Uh... riiiight. Let me give you a little advice on your business. You need to know how to read through the spin and extract the information that is critical from these press releases. If the price talks about a HUGE SAVINGS of $4,584 from the MSRP, that's all well and dandy. But I'm only looking for deciphering the actual prices, the terms and what they really mean without the extra lingo. That said, you can hold the company's PR department to what they said. If the price was $3,434 in the release and $4,584 in your invoice, you can hold the company to the stated price.

This is what most IT managers will say to you, especially in public companies like Internet Brands.

Get a life.

Even Wayne will tell you the vBulletin is a smaller part of the IB business. If my business was only about obsessing about vBulletin I'd be living in my parent's garage with just a bed, 20" TV and a Wii.

 

Without trying to offend you, what else do you do during the day? Do you run a web site that consists of more than forums or any business? This is NEVER the protocol.

(1) Ever hear of a customer mailing list? It's used to update customers on important issues, offers and any other customer related communication - all of which are OFFICIAL and not hundreds of hobbyists making guesses about what will be out when, where and how much. What is worse is that vB is letting customers run amok in their own forums and spreading all kinds of nonsense about savings, this, and that by not being manifestly clear.

(2) Your logic is so absurd that you're telling me that I should log in to unofficial forums that talk about vbulletin to get the news. I'm not even sure how to address this one.

(3) With regard to the HUGE pricing changes, until it's announced, it's all speculation. And the fact is that even if I had known about a rumor, nobody knew that buying a new license would cause you to have to buy an upgrade 2 weeks later at about 75% of what you just paid for a forum. If it's that outrageous a price upgrade, then you had better make it absofreakinglutely clear to customers and new purchasers that you are about to pound them in Borat's favorite orifice.

So let me get this straight - if the PR department offers a certain price with spin on it, you'll get the "official" price from an unofficial forum which will give you better information. Uh... riiiight. Let me give you a little advice on your business. You need to know how to read through the spin and extract the information that is critical from these press releases. If the price talks about a HUGE SAVINGS of $4,584 from the MSRP, that's all well and dandy. But I'm only looking for deciphering the actual prices, the terms and what they really mean without the extra lingo. That said, you can hold the company's PR department to what they said. If the price was $3,434 in the release and $4,584 in your invoice, you can hold the company to the stated price.

This is what most IT managers will say to you, especially in public companies like Internet Brands.

Get a life.

Even Wayne will tell you the vBulletin is a smaller part of the IB business. If my business was only about obsessing about vBulletin I'd be living in my parent's garage with just a bed, 20" TV and a Wii.

 

If we assume the Licensing Revenues are for vBulletin, then ~34% of IB's revenue is from vB.

For 9 months this brings the licensing revenue to ~32% of income.

In an unrelated note...

 

If we assume the Licensing Revenues are for vBulletin, then ~34% of IB's revenue is from vB.

For 9 months this brings the licensing revenue to ~32% of income.

In an unrelated note...

 

No we didn't. License holders knew about it when vb officially announced it.

As a regular management practice, rumor, gossip, exposures of internal communications and such are not meaningful. Early exposures of internal discussions have to be considered potentially misleading, they can't be assumed to be what will be presented eventually. One can waste time and energy planning for something that will never be.

Only that which is officially announced is "known." People are not accountable for knowing and planning for something before it is officially announced. Only vb is accountable for the timing of official communications.

One of vb's communications challenges right now is that the leak pre-disposed some license owners to see things a certain way, regardless of the actual content of announcements and promotional material. That's really clouding the complaints now - which complaints are a re-hash of the leak, and which are a reaction only to the official announcement. They are not the same.

Yeah I agree with those who believe the next rock in the avalanche that is sliding onto the heads of vb management is the license holders who did not get the word in the incredibly, shockingly, short two week time period to take action. One can't even assume to communicate to all customers in two weeks, much less expect them to understand the pricing, understand the product, understand the options, plan their finances, communicate with all their involved parties and work out which option is best.

 

No we didn't. License holders knew about it when vb officially announced it.

As a regular management practice, rumor, gossip, exposures of internal communications and such are not meaningful. Early exposures of internal discussions have to be considered potentially misleading, they can't be assumed to be what will be presented eventually. One can waste time and energy planning for something that will never be.

Only that which is officially announced is "known." People are not accountable for knowing and planning for something before it is officially announced. Only vb is accountable for the timing of official communications.

One of vb's communications challenges right now is that the leak pre-disposed some license owners to see things a certain way, regardless of the actual content of announcements and promotional material. That's really clouding the complaints now - which complaints are a re-hash of the leak, and which are a reaction only to the official announcement. They are not the same.

Yeah I agree with those who believe the next rock in the avalanche that is sliding onto the heads of vb management is the license holders who did not get the word in the incredibly, shockingly, short two week time period to take action. One can't even assume to communicate to all customers in two weeks, much less expect them to understand the pricing, understand the product, understand the options, plan their finances, communicate with all their involved parties and work out which option is best.

 

I saw this part:

Licensing revenues were $8.7 million in the third quarter of 2009 compared to $8.5 million in the prior year period.

If that only included vb licenses that would mean over 48,000 licenses were sold in Q3 at $180 each.

I really don't think that is just vb sales in the $8.7M

 

I saw this part:

Licensing revenues were $8.7 million in the third quarter of 2009 compared to $8.5 million in the prior year period.

If that only included vb licenses that would mean over 48,000 licenses were sold in Q3 at $180 each.

I really don't think that is just vb sales in the $8.7M

 

It's hard to tell from the press release what Licensing Revenue covers and I've tossed the Annual Report in the recycle bin months ago.

They sure don't make year over year comparisons easy in the annual report.

 

It's hard to tell from the press release what Licensing Revenue covers and I've tossed the Annual Report in the recycle bin months ago.

They sure don't make year over year comparisons easy in the annual report.

 

I'd like to chime in here too.. I owned two vB licenses, one with the blog. I got an email saying that "as a valued customer" my price would be $130. The same message was repeated in my Admin Control Panel (the admincp messages use the board's license number to pull appropriate content BTW).

But, when I went to buy it, the price they were actually quoting was more than DOUBLE the initial offer. I complained. Loudly.

As a result of my complaints, I was banned from vb.com and vb.org. Without access to vb.org, vB became useless. One of the strengths of vB is the mod community; but, since I couldn't access the mods, they effectively destroyed my ability to use my bought and paid for software. Forever. This is WRONG!

As a result of how I was treated, I went to IPB and purchased two copies of their suite. Money that COULD have gone to vB had they even attempted to treat me like a "valued customer"...

So, Wayne.. Does it strengthen your business to ban users who complain? Does it actually help you to take my money and essentially take my usage of the software away when I'm upset?

Here's the math.. Wayne has said that a new MAJOR version is scheduled for every 18-24months. That the vb5.0 suite license will be $250.

So, from $40/yr renewal for maintenance releases, they've TRIPLED the price to $125/yr all while trying to make it sound like it's "Cheaper".

And, if vB is finding their revenue lower than usual, there's NOTHING to stop them from creating a new major version every 12 months (or less), OR increasing the price from $250.

There's also the issue of people who own the blog; if you don't buy the 'suite' your blog is useless. But, if you buy the suite, you're buying the blog twice. AND, you're also locked into the more expensive renewal fees.

This whole situation stinks. I really loved vB; but, the way they're running the business now means that I do NOT plan on ever spending a single penny with vB again.

What IB/vB needs to do is to 1) apologize, 2) unban those that they banned for complaining, 3) come up with a realistic method of charging those who OWN vB for the upgrade. A 300% increase in the cost of maintaining forums is insane.

 

I'd like to chime in here too.. I owned two vB licenses, one with the blog. I got an email saying that "as a valued customer" my price would be $130. The same message was repeated in my Admin Control Panel (the admincp messages use the board's license number to pull appropriate content BTW).

But, when I went to buy it, the price they were actually quoting was more than DOUBLE the initial offer. I complained. Loudly.

As a result of my complaints, I was banned from vb.com and vb.org. Without access to vb.org, vB became useless. One of the strengths of vB is the mod community; but, since I couldn't access the mods, they effectively destroyed my ability to use my bought and paid for software. Forever. This is WRONG!

As a result of how I was treated, I went to IPB and purchased two copies of their suite. Money that COULD have gone to vB had they even attempted to treat me like a "valued customer"...

So, Wayne.. Does it strengthen your business to ban users who complain? Does it actually help you to take my money and essentially take my usage of the software away when I'm upset?

Here's the math.. Wayne has said that a new MAJOR version is scheduled for every 18-24months. That the vb5.0 suite license will be $250.

So, from $40/yr renewal for maintenance releases, they've TRIPLED the price to $125/yr all while trying to make it sound like it's "Cheaper".

And, if vB is finding their revenue lower than usual, there's NOTHING to stop them from creating a new major version every 12 months (or less), OR increasing the price from $250.

There's also the issue of people who own the blog; if you don't buy the 'suite' your blog is useless. But, if you buy the suite, you're buying the blog twice. AND, you're also locked into the more expensive renewal fees.

This whole situation stinks. I really loved vB; but, the way they're running the business now means that I do NOT plan on ever spending a single penny with vB again.

What IB/vB needs to do is to 1) apologize, 2) unban those that they banned for complaining, 3) come up with a realistic method of charging those who OWN vB for the upgrade. A 300% increase in the cost of maintaining forums is insane.

 

Legolas,

The reason that it was listed at $250 rather than $130 for you is that you most likely didn't sign into their NEW system. The member area and the cart are two completely separate systems (altho you use the same login information).

So I hate to say, but without reading your entire post, after reading your first three paragraphs you were the one in the wrong on this one.

If you'd have asked with a level head, you may have gotten the answer you were looking for.

 

Legolas,

The reason that it was listed at $250 rather than $130 for you is that you most likely didn't sign into their NEW system. The member area and the cart are two completely separate systems (altho you use the same login information).

So I hate to say, but without reading your entire post, after reading your first three paragraphs you were the one in the wrong on this one.

If you'd have asked with a level head, you may have gotten the answer you were looking for.

 

Sorry, you're incorrect. It was only DAYS later that the price was changed to the current $190 for me. In fact, my cost to upgrade for DAYS was $15 MORE than a new license. Which in any case was a LOT more than the $130 I was promised in the email I received, and in the note that showed up in the admincp.

 

Sorry, you're incorrect. It was only DAYS later that the price was changed to the current $190 for me. In fact, my cost to upgrade for DAYS was $15 MORE than a new license. Which in any case was a LOT more than the $130 I was promised in the email I received, and in the note that showed up in the admincp.