vBulletin 4 or vBulletin 5?

Wow. I was expecting the number to be low for vB5 but not THAT low. All that money and time IB is pouring into vB5 for that... but of course more people than that have purchased a vB5 license and maybe that's all IB cares about.

 

Yeah... At their current rate of adoption, we should see somewhere around 2-3% of all vBulletin sites using 5.x by the time 6.0 is released.

Check out the percent of sites using the latest version of IPB, XenForo or even WordPress... https://tools.digitalpoint.com/cookie-search

Ironically, the most popular branch of vBulletin today is one that a (now) XenForo developer announced 4 1/2 years ago (3.8)... http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/foru...ouncements_aa/303078-vbulletin-3-8-0-released

Selling something that people can't use probably isn't a good long-term business model. Quite a few sites big and small are abandoning vBulletin now. It's like if you went out of your way to do everything you could possibly do wrong from every aspect of design/implementation/coding, it's like what happened with vB5. Hundreds of queries per page view, 10-20 second rendering times for pages, etc. It's a complete disaster.

 

Good post. I would like to see the true figures posted on VB.com and VB.org. Perhaps one of the staff members there will post them.

After all they repeatedly tell us that they are not hiding anything!

 

They aren't going to have adoption rate numbers since users don't report to them what version they are running. My spider is spidering millions and millions of sites 24/7.

 

I would love to hear what @Paul M or @Mark.B have to say about this.
Great post @digitalpoint

 

The numbers for vB5.x are most definitely low but they are also skewed by a search for active sites.
I have a number of clients running vB5.x mirrors hidden behind .htaccess that won't come up in a search.
I know of at least a dozen such setups by customers who are waiting for certain functionality they need or want to have before going live. I'd venture more than 0.5% of vB customers have purchased vB5 licenses even if only that number is coming up in a search. The number may be marginally higher or it may be significantly higher. A lot of customers bought vB5 when it was first released to take advantage of the discount with the intention of sitting on the product as long as necessary. And, of course, some bought vB5 but are actually running vB4.x.

According to your data 76% of users are still using some version of vBulletin as opposed to XenForo or Invision Power Board. If that's the case then IB still has a ridiculously large foothold on the market and still has a huge potential customer base for vB5 once they get the product up to speed. If those customers haven't left by now are they going to?
vB5 is no more a failure than vB4 was when it was released. And it will probably take far less time for it to be a quality product. With that in mind I'm not certain current data is even an accurate picture of the future of the product. It could be but I wouldn't bet against a billion dollar investment firm with a long and storied track record of success.

 

You probably already know what they are going to say, why bother.

 

I would just like to see what they say about the facts presented.

 

I would guess that a LOT of those who bought vB5 licenses are running vB4, which is what vB support people are often recommending customers do.

I think a sizeable number will, yes. Many will continue to run vB3 or vB4 as long as they can but when it comes time to upgrade will move somewhere else. It's not just that vB5 is a disaster now. For me it's also that I don't even like the concept on which vB5 is based. I'll go further than that: I detest the way vB5 works and what it is they're trying to do. I want basic reliable forum software, not a social networking wannabe.

I used to log into vbulletin.com pretty much daily. These days, I find it so aggravating I only go there when I need to find a solution to an issue I'm having.

I disagree. vB 4.0 "Gold" was a beta misnamed as a gold release. I held off until 4.0.1 to upgrade and that, of course, was a huge mistake. But at least 4.0.1 was runnable, if clumsy. vB 5.0.3 isn't even close to being good enough for a live forum, even if you like the concept.

They don't have "a long and storied track record of success" with forum software, though, or even with vBulletin.

 

What are you trying to argue against? Shawn only pointed out the usage or adoption stats. Not the "vB5 licenses sold" stats.

What kind of features are they looking for? Have you posted them in Jira or do you know they are in Jira? If they aren't in Jira, your clients will never see those features. You do know that, right?

I'd bet out of all of the vB5 purchases, more are using vB4, because it is simply the better product.

Again, I ask, who or what are you arguing against?

And the real key here is "once they get the product up to speed". As a company, you just shouldn't produce anything like that. It is a very, very bad mistake and yes, more customers will be leaving vBulletin for an alternative, as soon as the alternative is viable enough for them to move to because, it will take IB a good bit of time to get vB5 to become viable alternative to vB4 and vB3 and with what has happened, most people who know IB, don't trust them any more to get the job done.

hehehe....the key here is both releases WERE failures.

Actually, the too softwares and their initial releases aren't even comparable. From a customer standpoint, I'd say vB4 is the greater failure, because so many had bought into the software, before it was even released. IB took advantage of a lot of people's trust in the vB product and brand and sold a lot of licenses with their infamous pre-sale and then came out with a piece of junk, especially the new "CMS" in the Suite, which was the basis of making a purchase in the pre-sale. "Buy the Suite or lump it." So yeah, vB4 was a much worse release than vB5 was, because so many customers had paid money for it in advance.

Also, to let you in on a little sort of secret.....from IB's standpoint, vB4's release wasn't a failure at all. It was a success!!! How do I know? I was contradicted by a higher raking IB manager, when I said to Bob, the CEO, that vB4's release was very, very poor and this other higher manager went on to say I was wrong and as his argument noted "the great numbers" made by the pre-sale. That higher ranking manager is also still there and running the vB show btw.

I admire your optimism, but why are you arguing in favor of vBulletin so often? I mean, how can you stick effort to defend and keep hope up in a company that has failed twice back to back on their major releases? You can also chalk up two more failures, when you look at their Mobile Suite and Facebook apps. I don't want you to loose your optimism. I'd really just like to understand it. Are you arguing in IB's favor just to make the conversations here more interesting? Or do you really believe what you say?

Again, I have to ask you, do you know something the rest of us don't? LOL!

How can you, as a customer, even sit calmly and accept that kind of "quality production". You paid money for a product and aren't getting what you paid for. Most people would flip out. How can you propogate the attitude, "Even though you've just forked out a good penny for the software, don't worry, it will be up to your standards sooner or later."?

Lol! This is good. Tell that to all the financial market people. I am sure all their efforts to portray the future with information from the past is all just a waste of time. Hehehe..... But, in end effect you are right! Nobody can predict the future from the past. Maybe IB might just change and do more right than wrong in terms of vBulletin for a change.

If you are referring to Helmann and Friedmann, they only own IB, they don't manage it. As long as H&F see their returns for their investments, they will gladly and quietly sit back and watch how their investments progress. To me, it is very strange for a suposedly successfully running company to take on debt in the tune of about half of its market value to be able to pay almost a third of that new credit back to its own investors as "divedends". Where are the profits?

So, if you are betting on anyone, it is IB's management you are betting on, not H&F. I actually think this whole constellation with H&F is bad for IB overall, because it must make them think even more in short term profits. So, no, I personally wouldn't bet on them as a team either. And IB as a company has a ton of work to do to prove they are even worthy of my bet and they aren't making one single effort to do it. Well, as a vB customer, I can't see any real effort being made. Killing bugs doesn't cut it!

Scott

 

I consider that both supporters and non supporters of VB et al have a right to post their respective opinions.

I have noticed a tendency for the supporters to say a lot of things like "it will be good" "give it time" "it is not finished yet " etc.
I cannot help but compare it with buying say a new car. If it just does not work as intended in any way shape or form, how patient would a paying customer have to be, to wait a year or more for it to be fixed? AFTER paying for it!

In Australia a product has to be "of merchantable quality and suitable for the purpose it was intended for" I would think the USA has similar rules?

It is patently clear that VB5 was released to a time table, NOT to its suitability for the job it was intended for.

How much time and effort as well as money have VB customers spent or wasted in trying to get the product to do what it was intended to do. and why have customers been treated like shit for commenting on its poor performance with deletions of their comments and bannings if they go against the propaganda machine.

While I respect everyone's right to have their say, I am at a bit of a loss seeing how they can justify and defend the undefendable. the facts are there for any reasonable person to clearly see.

 

How long does it usually take Microsoft to get a Windows release "right?"
Is it suitable for the job it was intended for upon initial release? Ever?
How many years did it take to get XP right? Was Vista ever right? How about Me?
If you're going to make a broad, sweeping comparison at least compare similar products.
This is a common occurrence is software.
vBulletin is far from the only half-baked software product to hit the market.
And it pales in comparison to the 98% of the world's computers which operate on Windows products.

 

Not arguing against anything. Arguing the numbers specific to vB5 are likely inaccurate.

The usual things customers of vB4 suite expect to be functional. CMS, RSS, the ability to make any page the home page, things of that nature.

As of now, this is true.

If vB5 was the abject failure so many claim, why would IB wait to pull the plug on it? It must be selling.

See my other post. Ideally, one would want software perfect upon release. The reality is it never works that way.

Yes, but not abject failures beyond all hope of redemption. vB4 has since sold a lot of licenses.

Yes, and there was also the pricing structure change, which in hindsight was a poor business model.

Yes, because you're looking at it from a customer perspective. They're looking at it from a business perspective.

I've never argued vBulletin / IB doesn't have major problems with both the product and the brand image.
What I do argue is that none of it is beyond repair. I've seen this movie before.
There is a laundry list of Fortune 500 companies who have fixed the same problems.
Two huge ones who did so in this nation are Ford Motor Company and Chrysler Corporation.

I know venture capitalists don't sit on exploding bombs. HF is either making a profit, has a business model that shows they can and will make a profit. If they were concerned they would have more heads than just a few lower and mid-level employees. Bob Brisco answers for the revenue of the brand and he still has a job. They also don't appear to be looking for buyers.

Because, again, all software is released in the same manner, even antivirus software.

Again, they're working on business models from people they trust. If no one was capable of showing how this is and will continue to be a profitable venture someone would pay with their job. That's what corporations do.

How do we know the prospectus? We don't know if they gave investors a window of days, weeks, months, years.

I'm betting on vBulletin's Developers, Support, and QA. These are good people who have always done their very best for the product and the customer base, because they aren't motivated by profit margins. If the product fails it won't be any of their faults. I'm also betting on it because I've been there and done that with vB and even have the battle scars. Finally, I'm betting on vB because the competition isn't impressive. XF has a tremendous amount of potential but it also has miles to go before it rivals vB 4.2 in functionality and modifications. IPB is just a cluster[****][****][****][****] of shit thrown together which requires both admin and customers unlearn and relearn something they've been doing since the advent of phpbb. Reinventing the wheel is a bad idea.

Now, I won't be investing in the future of the vBulletin product. If it sinks, I'm out of the forums game. I don't rely on it for a source of income. It's entertainment, nothing more. I fall into the "I bought vB5 early for the discount and knew it would take a while to get a functional product from past experience but thought it would be nice for members to eventually have certain features not available in the vB4 product line" category.

 

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

 

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

But I'm betting they won't say anything, not a lot they can say when Shawn has the data to prove it.

 

LOL ... not actually Latin, my friend, but the point holds true nevertheless.

Don't let the bastards grind you down.

 

Even assuming we had such figures (which we dont), then staff would not be allowed to post them without management permission.

Good job you dont bet very often then isnt it.

What exactly do you think we are not going to say
Do you think we are going to say Shaun invented them or something

He posted them on vb.com weeks ago, so Ive already seen them.
Try not to be too disappointed, but nothing in those figures is a great surprise to me.

 

What should I not be disappointed about? I don't bash vBulletin on forums like the rest do, I'm not interested in anything about it these days, haven't been for over 2 years. So don't flatter yourself Paul, same old - same old you.

Some of us moved on, and I wouldn't know if he posted that on vB.org or vB.com, I've been to vB.com about 10 times in 2 years, and have not visited vB.org in a loooong time. I might have visited it 2-3 times in past 4 years.

 

@ProSportsForums - please stay optimistic and I hope it turns out good for you. I hope IB doesn't disappoint you, as they have so many others.

You mentioned the team under the management wanting to do a good job. I have no doubt you are right. However, as long as their efforts are poorly directed and also badly undermined by really poor decisions based purely on "the numbers" and not customer oriented thinking, the team will also get frustrated and have a lot of difficulty to find reasons to be motivated. So, their work will continue to suffer, the tempo of vBulletin's development will worsen and more customers will definitely leave. The team will also stop to care at one point, if they haven't already. At that point, vBulletin will be at its end.

But again, stay optimistic. I'll stay pessimistic and we'll see who was right in about 2-3 years......tops.

[edit] And to get back on topic, definitely vB4. Go with vB4. But remember, it isn't compatible with the most recent and supported versions of PHP and it doesn't work well with IE10. So it is practically a no-go too. I guess the right answer is neither. The answer is, don't use vB at all, until IB understands what customer oriented decision making means and carries it out more often than not.

Scott