The vBulletin Bashing-

Thanks for pointing my signature out, Rocket, much appreciated. I was waiting for that slash.

First of all, my signature is get your acts together, because, well, people need to get their acts together - my signature does not single out anyone, and is not directed at anyone.

Secondly, I have that signature because I just ordered that book by Pam Young and Peggy Jones.

Lastly, it's good to have it here. Really may give some people the wake up call they need.

 

:lol: I can think of a few people who need a wake up call.

 

I'm one person - thanks for reminding me.

 

Exactly rocket, i am only one person and this has been my experience. I am sorry that it has upset people, so apparently it hit a nerve. But i wish people would calm down on nick. He is a damn good administrator in my opinion and is willing to take good questions and well as bad questions (as looked at by others).

 

Just quoting your OP, but I'm also taking a moment to address your other points...to stay on topic.

TomZilla,

In concept, I am in agreement with you: Personal Bashes are Uncalled for, low blow tactics. I'm pretty sure everyone is in agreement with that.

To handle that, the AA staff must determine a course of action from their point of view. Not everyone wears the same set of shoes. Steps that could be considered in handling this, if there are legit bashing cases, is for post moderation or edits after the fact. That is really the only way to do it, but keep in mind, that is by interpretation if said AA staff elect that course of action.

Again, I'm not against your concept, however, to give some extra credibility to your call to action is for you to provide what you think is bashing. People that have provided their experiences are still valid....to them. Only bits and pieces will be valid to others. A good admin is one that can see through the crap to find the substance. C'mon really, any of you novel writers here such that you can express your true emotions regarding the issues? Really, that is what the effect is, a lack of being able to communicate those emotions in non-bashing ways.

So, I'd really have to see that it is incumbent on you to designate what you construe as bashing. To some it is obvious, to others it will not be. I'm not saying you're wrong with this at all, but you'll have to do some leg work in order to give your concern much more weight considering this far reaching, concrete, event of the IB/vBS Presale/Licensing Overhaul.

With regard to the actual staff of vBS (Wayne, Ray, etc.) comments coming here, it's simple, it was their choice to spend the time here. AA serves a purpose and the tone here was such that they felt to come here and participate. I don't think you can assume they will stop coming here. They were here just yesterday and I'm sure you're not speaking for them. Maybe I misunderstand you, but you make it out to be like some priviledge and we need to be on egg shells because of their presence. Mainly to see what other advantageous tips or can be provided. Everyone can benefit from it, however, you can't separate the company from the people that are front lines of it (per Kevin's points). Let the vBS staff speak or not speak for themselves.

The best part of your thread TomZilla, is bringing awareness to such content. Hopefully, people will think a little prior to typing the words. I'm certainly no Saint and I expect people here or elsewhere to call me out on it.

Regards,

 

MjrNuT, that is a great view and i totally agree. I for one appreciate your open-mindedness, and not about my postings, but your view on how people interpret emotions in a post.

 

Thanks for your post!

Coming up with a universal definition of bashing is something, I think, we should all compile. This way, there will be different understandings/meanings of bashing. Blatant, bashing, of course, is obvious. Bashing, to me, is like bullying. What does bashing mean to you?

All in all, I'm just here in the attempt to make AA better. Nobody likes a fragile community - things need to be more solid around here is all.

Also, I think we should be privileged that Wayne and Ray and Lynne are all active components of AA! I mean, who else, would know better then them? Yes, I know, you'll name someone, but they're staff.

 

Pshew. This turns into a bigger mess each day, I'll tell 'ya.


One thing continues to run across my mind as I read most of your posts, Tom: You keep expressing your disappointment with what's going on, and you are clearly stating your complaints, but you have not proposed a solution. Telling me AA is headed the wrong way, that I'm not doing things correctly, that AA is digging its own grave, etc. is not constructive. To everybody: I completely understand that this is a stressful situation and that it utterly hurts you to read the "nasty" posts. But can you please imagine how in the heck it is for me to be dealing with this? I have two kinds of members to deal with, and need to make decisions that remain medium in their extremities. It's no easy task, and unless you're in my position, you wouldn't know.

Excuse me?! That is SO rude and inconsiderate. How exactly am I handling it? Please provide some feedback as to how you believe it should be handled.

By the way, you haven't reported a single post to bring to my attention. So that's another area that you aren't helping in.

I think you know by now that I cannot read every single post that is made, and take action in a timely manner. Reporting posts for me to review is a huge help.

True, but he's just like any other member, and is here voluntarily. I'm not stating this as an insult to Wayne, but it's a fact.

I cannot honestly be expected to run AdminAddict and make my decisions to revolve around Wayne. Yes, he is an asset to this community, but I can not and will not sacrifice everything just to keep him and the other Mentors around.

Thank you for your understanding. You are able to take a step back and view the big picture, and I appreciate that.

As I mentioned above, you have put forth absolutely no suggestions to improve the situation. You're just voicing your concerns, which has been done a hundred times already. (Not that I take your concerns for granted; on the contrary, I appreciate them. But I'd like to hear some feedback as to how exactly this situation should be handled).

This is true in some cases, but the problem is that I am not receiving any post reports. People claim to be appalled by the extremely rude posts, but they don't do anything about it.

I still haven't figured out how some members can write several posts repeating their same concerns over and over again, but they can't take the time to report a few posts. :shrug:

Thank you. You are right: I am doing my best to see this from both sides, and handle it to the best of my ability.

-


To address the major general concern voiced by Tom:

If you are upset with the posts, I have already made it extremely easy for you to not have to deal with them. What more do you want, without me having to censor?

 

As i see it, Nick's caught between a rock and a hard place, and Tom, I see little difference between what you term the "bashing" of Wayne and your "bashing" of Nick.

As I see it, Admin Addict wants to provide a mature and neutral place for admins to discuss issues. It's great that Wayne posts here, and I think he does so with an open mind. I doubt he minds attacks on the company particularly, he is always happy to put across a counter argument. I don't see a problem with people having a "vent" at vBulletin, or anything else, as long as it remains civil.

Where I'd draw the line is personal attacks. If, for instance, someone were to call Wayne (or any other member) a "moron" then I think that needs to go.

What constitutes abuse is always going to divide people. Where you draw the line is always going to divide people. I don't think Nick should try to keep *everyone* happy - as tempting as that is, it only leads to problems, and once a decision is made it should be stuck to. If one or two people leave over that decision, that's sad but it's the way of forums. If *everyone* leaves then maybe the decision needs to be reviewed.

I won't be leaving, whatever happens. The site is an excellent resource and I have enjoyed the various vb debates. This phase will pass and people will talk about something else in due course. But in the meantime, my only advice would be not to allow personal attacks and libellous remarks, and request that people keep it civil and on-topic. Beyond that, I don't see any problem.

 

I agree! And I am anxiously awaiting that time.

I also agree with this, 100%. I ask that any member who finds posts that violate that simple guideline, to please report it. I just don't have the time to read every thread, comprehensively.

 

It will. I'm a veteran of this sort of thing.

It'll probably keep flaring up from time to time.

Take it as a compliment - the vast majority of the worthwhile debate about the vB situation that hasn't been on vb.com, has been on here. I think that's a measure of the respect people have for this site and the way it operates. Plus the site's got some exposure out of it, particularly on The Register.

Of course, every time a vB news story flares up people will come here again.

I don't think there's a particular problem - Wayne is still posting here, and I really don't think he would if he thought the site was biased or not handling things properly.

But really, don't get stressed if people leave. It happens. As the admin of an "uncensored" site, (well, as uncensored as possible within the law anyway), people leave all the time, often it's because they claim to want "free speech" but can't actually handle it when they get it because it means they are open to the same things they want to say to others.

 

Kudos mark, that is very well said......

 

wow go away a day or so to come back to threads like these.. bashing individuals such as wayne or vb tech staff isn't necessary. If some of you guys are so angry at vB and it's staff, the ultimate protest would be to delete your entire forums' databases and start over again - you don't need a community that vB software and it's staff assisted you directly/indirectly in building!

Remember once you start insulting individuals with personal attacks, you will loose any and all civil and reasonable dialogue of communication with the other party.

Nick, I feel sorry for ya, you've got a hard job here

 

And I think you are doing a really fine job, especially at this time!

:cheers:

 

As I said much earlier, I think there's a fine line somewhere. But I don't know where that is. But it almost seems that some are wanting to throw Nick under the bus. Yes, someone called Wayne a name. It didn't need to happen. But how many people reported it? And I think that one instance of a name calling has now been quoted as "Nick is allowing people to continually bash people by name..." Huh?

Anyhow, this crap storm will dwindle in the next bit of time. People will realize what they need/want from vB and what they can expect from vB and then make their choices accordingly, be it stay or leave.

But keep your chin up, Nick. I appreciate you providing this place for us. You put a lot of time/effort into it that most people never realize.

Clear eyes. Full hearts....can't lose!

 

Guess how many did? ZERO! I am still waiting for the report, as I haven't found the post(s).

 

I think it might have been Hotwheels' sig, he did call Wayne and Steve something pretty horrid in it, but he removed it a couple of days ago.

 

Arguing on the internet is like...Oh, never mind.

Nick, you're doing a great job with what you have to work with.

I hope all of this is not getting down on you too much. AA is a fine forum.

Now if people would quit spilling the vB sensitive threads out into the open forums, that would be great. You all have a place to argue about it, but you need to put your threads in their proper place.

 

Thank you. I think it is getting down on me too much. So many people are complaining and crying, without offering any suggestions as to how I should handle it.

I don't see the productivity in that.

Please report any "spilled" posts/threads and I'll take care of it promptly.

 

You ARE doing a great job nick and a heck of a service to all administrators, no matter what software they are using.