Sitepoint moves to Discourse?

Yup, if you are Java-centric, that could be a direction to take. I highly doubt the masses will get onto Java as their web application platform though, despite it being the #1 programming language in the world. It is funny how that hasn't happened and Java has been stuck mainly with big enterprise.

Scott

 

I don't know how similar Discourse is to the software powering Stack Exchange sites. Because Discourse is ROR it doubtful that I'll ever run an instance of it even if just to kick the tires and that's a big downfall. I'd guess the vast majority of forum admins are familiar and comfortable with php/mySQL. Who wants to learn a whole new base system just to try a piece of software? Not me.

Anywho, The Stack Exchange sites are great for what they are primarily Q&A sites. I don't think the forum software is very conductive to conversation though. For instance, how do you upvote posts on this thread? It's a conversation of opinions no one is necessarily right or wrong as there are no steadfast answers.

 

It's just political. Jeff is the world's biggest PHP critic; he would never start a large project with it. If he did, he'd be a hypocrite and it would be damaging to his reputation. For web applications, Python/Ruby/PHP are close enough that no platform has huge benefits over others. It's all about the developers and users he wants to attract.

Modern PHP is getting quite nice though. Decent OO, a mix of functional, package management, unit and acceptance testing, etc. -- http://phptherightway.com/

This is what we're on the edge of (works now, but consumer adoption)

Code:

 composer create-project [software] .
composer require [some-plugin] [verison]
composer require [some-theme] [version]

That is all possible now, it'll just take some time for the specific platforms to adopt composer in their plugin system. I know the big frameworks, and some popular CMS' support it already.

However, it also marks a shift away from point and click installing towards command line. At least for the developers.

 

The big problem with non PHP stuff is basically hosting companies. The mass market ones practically only offer languages like PHP and tightly restrict anything that involves actual programming/tech/server configuration knowledge.

Add how PHP and MySQL are ludicrously easy to configure and set up scripts using, and well, you can tell why anything not written in said language is currently doomed to fail. Because basically, two things have to have before PHP goes out of fashion:

1. Web hosting companies (most/all of them) have to offer something else.
2. It has to be as simple to setup a script using Ruby/Python/.NET/whatever as a PHP script, drag and drop basically.

But it's all irrelevant. Sitepoint itself cannot succeed upon merely switching software. It could use XenForo, it could use IPB, it could use some fifty thousand dollar enterprise script or it could use phpBB, but it won't help. The community itself is broken. The forums are overrun by fluff, by content which is boring to read, often poorly written and of which consists at least 50% of either extremely stupid questions or spam. They will only fix this if they start slamming down the hammer on poor quality crap, getting rid of members who can't speak three words of coherent English and start encourage fascinating, interesting to read content in the same style as the articles on their main website.

They don't need a new script. They need some more new community managers with a clear vision to what the future of the site should be and the determination and drive to get it there. To discourage the 'idiots' and encourage the good members currently there to post more debate worthy topics.

 

When I was active there, I got the most value out of the PHP Application Design forum, and the MySQL forum. Both were filled with experts, good discussions and of course, newbies getting information quickly. What changed?

1 - PHP Application Design forum was merged into the PHP free for all, which was (is?) one of the most active forums they had. Stopped viewing it, as the PHP one was total garbage by comparison.

2 - MySQL, eventually I followed the expert I followed directly, and was able to find answers myself once I learned the ropes more. Eventually, most decent questions are always answered, and a search gives you better results than asking does.

3 - Stack Exchange. I can my software design fix from programmers.SE, and programming help from stack overflow. I was never fond of the actual sitepoint community anyway; it was a resource. Resources come and go if you can't get gain personal attachment.

Now, like you guys state, the signal to noise ratio is horrible: full of fluff and marketing. It makes me sad, because SitePoint was one of my favorite forums, next to vB.org back then. One thing they did have going for them was the featured discussions... but they need way more, and categorized to be relevant.

While I fully agree it's not a technology problem, sometimes technology can spark some motivation again for those feeling defeated.

 

It seems like you are not the only one unhappy about the combining of forums on Sitepoint either.

Scott

 

Not completely true.

https://code.google.com/p/phpdesktop/
http://wxphp.org/
http://www.tidesdk.org/

There was also PHP/GTK, but that lost steam and is basically dead.

Although, generally speaking, PHP isn't really designed to be making desktop apps, that is correct.

I highly doubt it will be pushed out of the web development envelope anytime soon, if at all. What is very interesting is Hack. It hasn't been released yet, but it is what PHP6 should be, from what I understand. (I sure wish they wouldn't call it Hack though).

Scott

 

No true.
I'm using http://symfony.com/doc/current/components/console/introduction.html for really MANY things.
I had ~30 php console applications to make xf & ipb development easier and faster.
Even my IDE communicated via the command line with my xf application

 

Discourse was about as user friendly as vBulletin 5.

That was a nightmare of trying to navigate around and accomplish things.

 

Keep in mind, being forum admins, our definition of user friendly or easy is probably very tainted. Sometimes we mistake different (or refreshing) for being hard. I also understand that that's entirely subject as well. I found it much easier to use, but was a surprised how much they stripped out. Maybe that's what is needed though.

Look at a vBulletin 3.8 or 4.x (probably 5 too, not sure) new thread page. It's HUGE, when really, title + message is all that is needed. Such a horrible experience, yet, for us, that's the norm.

 

How's sitepoint doing in terms of traffic and who's online since this change happened?

 

Hasn't happened yet.

I assume it'll do okay... for about a week. Every forum gets a mini 'revival' when they switch software, if only because the members complain about the changes.

 

Discourse is something that I haven't made my mind up on yet. After poking around on the meta for a little while a bit ago, I discovered some really good ideas but also a fair amount of ones I didn't really like. I haven't seen the software used as anything other than a question and answer community styled site just yet. I don't really feel the social interaction as of yet. Hope it does well as a software or at least shows some other software's some assets that they can adopt.

As for SitePoint, I was there a couple of years ago and didn't really like it. There were too many spammy and cheap posts from obvious link droppers.

 

Can't say I like Discourse having had a look at it, I rate Vanilla as both looking better and having a better forum layout than Discourse has for something different than the norm, if wanting a questions and answers type forum.

This site uses Vanilla.

 

This conversion will be interesting to follow. Though I fear it won't work out for the community as they hope it will. The change they want should come from, and be stimulated by, the forum team. Not a change of software.

 

I agree, I think they need to produce more content on the forums and stir discussions. I remember way back when the sitepoint forum staff were pretty active and helped keep the boards alive and pumping. This is probably before the time Digitalpoint surpassed them in forum content and members. Digitalpoint has more tools than them and provides their user base with more tools, Sitepoint focuses more on books and such.

 

Also, cpvr's point above about focusing on books and stuff is another issue with Sitepoint in general.

They care too much about the 'content', too little about the 'community'. What they seem to forget is that to a degree, content doesn't help a community all that much. Read articles like this:

http://www.feverbee.com/2011/10/content.html

Most importantly, points like this:

and

http://www.feverbee.com/2010/11/7things.html

Problem is, Sitepoint entirely seems to focus on content as if it'll magically turn their readers into members. They're wrong. What they really need is to focus on the community, get more of their experts contributing to the forums and holding discussions and to make that the core of the site, if they genuinely want the forums to succeed.

They need more evidence of this? Well think about my case here. I read their site every day. But guess what? Because the interesting stuff is almost always in the form of articles and books and stuff, I don't actually ever have to use the forum. So I don't. Why should I join if the good stuff is written for average joes and guests on the 'main' site and the forums have very little in terms of a real 'community' feel to them?

Oh and finally, on another note... I think the articles and books are also why their forums are struggling content wise. Because they never post the interesting stuff in the forums, it's all kept to books and articles instead, in the form of dry tutorials. Would work much better if instead of making everything a site discussion (or even worse, a chat room meeting with transcript), that said posts were turned into interesting forum discussions and held on the forums where everyone can contribute their views.

So yes, to put it simply, they're failing because they're making the big company forum management mistake; thinking that forums should just be some bolt on extra to a large existing site rather than the focus on the site itself, and that content in the form of articles and guides should be prioritised over the likes of discussions and debates.