Has IB turned the ship around?

And in this case it says that some of those people have bullied everything to make this the dominate discussion to the detriment of most other things.

I'm not saying there are no issues and that life is full of fuzzy bunnies, well there was that one semester in college when we experimented a bit...A balance needs to be struck. It is a major issue and some of our livelihoods are at stake here. However, it doesn't need to overrun even posts about other products.

 

I think you are missing the point. It has nothing to do with discussion being positive or negative. What it has to do with is discussion being reasonable and mature.

You can easily say "F*** Ray Morgan, he's such a dumb a** and is running vB down the drain" in a normal and mature manner like: "Ray Morgan doesn't seem to know what he is doing. I truly think he is destroying the company."

Do you see my point?

What it says is that we are known as the place without censoring so everybody comes here to rant. The popularity is nice and all, but when it seems to be destroying my site, I'm essentially forced to do something about it. I can't do nothing about it.

 

And just how is that ballance supposed to be struck when IB has refused to listen or carry on civil discussion?

 

Please enlighten me as to what IB's actions have to do with AdminAddict?

 

Screw them, Why should the foot of vbulletin allowed to be wielded and information here used to gain customers which an employee does by providing an array of crap to glorify vbulletin if the disgruntled customer has lost complete access?

I'm telling you now, if the shoe was on the other foot you would be in the camp of the disgruntled customers group.

What your promoting is the ability to stop constructive dialogue between customer and company and having a problem with it whilst no problem with employees gain customers by glorifying a product that the majority have not seen yet but are expected to purchase or face a useless license.

Somehow, to me, that shows a slight portion of selfishness. There's never going to be a equilibrium whilst the actions taken are one sided.

 

Tell me exactly how you think your message is getting to the eyes of those that can make a difference at vB Solutions. Wayne has been chased off. Ray posted here one time, maybe 2. You think he is coming back here to wade in the storm? And if you think Bob Brisco monitors this site, well I got ocean front property in Nebraska you want to buy into.

At this point it's pissing in the wind, hope that its at your back too....

The tree is falling in the forest making a lot of noise but only trees that can't do anything to help hear it.

Damn...running out of cliches here..

 

This is a pretty cool site!

vBFlames • Index page

 

How? I am trying to encourage CONSTRUCTIVE dialogue and criticism. But it doesn't seem to be working; everybody is resorting to cheap shots and crude comments.

My actions are anything but one-sided. I have let this bashing go on, I've tried to accommodate the passionate discussion by creating a new sub-forum, I have sent plenty of gentle PM reminders/warnings, but none of it seems to work. Do you honestly expect me to let it continue to go on while seeing members leave the community left and right?

I couldn't care less about IB and their issues (in regards to my management of AA). If people were arguing about purple hippos and flying donkeys, the way I handle the situation would be no different.

 

This will be my final post in this thread, or here, for that matter.
AA is a place for forum administrators to get together and discuss topics related to their forums, no? How is this not directly related to that purpose?

How does hiding what IB is doing here and not allowing open discussion about major problems with this software and company (which is directly related to the forum topic) do anything but claim "we sold out"? It doesn't.

So, when a forum admin, or potential admin comes here looking for unbiased information on software, what will they find? Completely biased information, a one sided piece of the truth.

Have people been offended enough to leave? Sure, and count me in on those. While I respect the position of Nick here, in the end, suppressing things like this, or threatening to do so, really not the solution.

People come to this site for information, details, and assistance with how to run their forums, or what software to use. Silencing parts of this discussion doesn't do anything but give in to IB.

Will discussion be passionate? Yes, and with any passionate discussion, people will be offended. Sadly, there is no more open and passionate discussion, it's quite one sided, and AA has basically sold out to IB, basically censoring it's members. That's fine, but that is where I draw the line, as a sponsor, and as a member.

 

We're not hiding anything, and we aren't not allowing open discussion. We're disallowing crude and rude posting, which shouldn't be permitted in the first place, regardless of the subject matter.

No, that is not the case. If you would take a minute to realize what my intention is and stop putting words in my mouth (accuse me of trying to disallow opposing discussion, only allow "IB is great" discussion) then you would realize that I do my best to keep things unbiased and balanced.

So the real answer to your question, "what will they see?" -- well, what they will see is a bunch of incessant rude, crude, and cruel discussion and will think "how the hell do the administrators allow this discussion to take place?!" and will leave. That's what will happen.

Give in to IB? It has NOTHING to do with IB. Rude posts and personal attacks are not permitted. That's a forum rule, and always has been. It's time to enforce it to a further extent.

This is indeed true (people find ways to take offense to compliments), but that doesn't make it okay to deliberately make the posts offensive.

Nothing has changed...

Nothing has changed...

We have?

Huh? That's news to me... Unless Nathan is running around deleting and editing posts without me knowing, I don't see any censorship.

 

There was that one spam post, I think it was yesterday. But if ya'll want me to leave those mobile phone deals up for you take advantage of them I will...

 

Boy oh boy, you'd think that fellow admins would have a little more compassion and understanding about 'passionate' postings and being able to distinguish the differences between an 'attack' and a 'discussion'.

I personally feel that a lot of the comments made by folks here on the site are more based on feelings rather than facts. There shouldn't be any limitations on what is discussed, but if the comments/discussions become 'attacks' and just plain 'crude/rude', then that's when the line should be drawn, in my opinion.

Now, granted, this is coming from an admin that is involved in sites that the only problems are having too many smilies in a posting....but, can't we all just get along?

No matter how passionate people are in communicating their side of any argument, it doesn't mean that they should resort to offending others just to make a point.

Nick/Nathan, keep up the good (and challenging) work and we'll be here for support of AA through thick and thin

 

Nick, i still think you are doing an awesome job. And as admins, i tend to be a bit confused on what other admins think we should act like? Most of us run our site's differently and allow different types of content. My site has stuff that isn't appropriate for public eyes (x rated content), and that is something i deal with as an admin. I too allow profanity, bashing, rants, rages, etc......People are people and by human nature we will always differ on opinions, it's human nature. What i think is profanity and what other people think is profanity differs as well.

One thing i don't have on my site are overly sensitive people and that seems to be the majority around the internet right now over the VB fiasco. I am sorry if people like the members (staff) that i currently don't like over at vb and i still feel they are unproffesional. I too cannot think of a post right off hand that had a bunch of profanity in or a bunch of name calling. I do remember being one that has and does use the names of staff from vb.com who are singling customers out and then act surprised when their tales are talked about in public. I have been told a hundred times, things like this should be handled in private. How is that accomplished? If the staff from the other site ban you and have their pm's shut off, you can not contact them to discuss things in private. I too have stated here that those staff members can speak for themselves if they believe someone isn't telling the truth and not one time has any of those staff members denied what i have stated. I have no reason to lie about it, and i will not lie about it. Anything i have stated here, i would state to them man on man. I am not ashamed of my feelings towards certain staff members over there, and i will not be ashamed of telling the truth. Here is what sucks though, i had a bad experience with these guys and everyone acts surprised, overly sensitive about these names being talked about in public. Even though i really don't care if people like it or if they don't like me for discussing these things, i have tried to be decent here about it and removed my signature, where i called these two gents, losers. To me they are and will always be. If that is a personal bash on first glance, then so be it, i will take a banning.

I just wish people would quit being so sensitive. Tonight i have received two tongue lashings and the first one caught me off guard do to the fact that i thought i was commenting on something that was being discussed in a thread, then a second one in the section of the site i thought we could discuss things in. So right now, we can't win for loosing and that puts you in a bad spot nick and for that i apologize. I for one didn't want you being in this situation and thought you were/are one hell of an admin for letting some of us vent and have discussions on what we are thinking. My thoughts are based on two things fact/emotion.....You can't really have one without the other or we would all be robots. I wish that wasn't the case, but it is....again, it's human nature.

Sadly though, as a site owner you are in a horrible position here. Not only are you having to defend administrating your site (which you have done an awesome job), you have to calm your staff down now too.....My personal thoughts now are just to lock all the threads that discuss vbulletin in bad context and move on......I can tell from the staff reaction today and some of the other members being a bit sensitive, that may be your only options. I would go ahead and lay down the hammer, nip it in the butt now. Their is noway you can balance personal opinions and discussions and staff members being unhappy about the discussions. I say delete these threads and moderate the site towards um, admin related discussions, such as other threads we have commented in. Sorry bout the trouble i caused you nick, wasn't my intention and i do appreciate you being open-minded about what was being discussed, It was fun. Was nice to see the different thoughts about what was going on and in the end, i think people will just accept what is happening with vb.com and the software.

 

Inappropriate posts have been removed and the thread has been re-opened.

 

Thanks nick........

 

I haven't visited Admin Addict for a few days, this forum is new to me, but I think it is a great idea. Thanks to the AA staff for taking this step in hopes of enabling constructive discussions.

I am sorry Wayne won't be visiting, but having read some of the less attractive posts, I completely understand why he isn't.

There are legitimate complaints with some of the terms of vB's offer to existing customers. But behaving as if a couple of hundred $$ is the end of all decency and progress is ridiculous. IMO, of course.

I agree.

If ranting on and on is the only way some people choose to handle their complaints, I do not expect anything will change for them. There comes a point where the repetitive ranting is doing nothing for anyone, there is no point in reading it. There are some places on AA where that point has been passed.

Nick I greatly appreciate that you are handling that without having shut down the discussion altogether. Good for you and the AA staff.

I'm all for it. Think it works great.

Then perhaps a real discussion of what vB options and possibilities might be possible. And the constructive use of the new features, how forums that don't have them now might be transitioned.

I hope it isn't too personal on my part to say I find that to be a profoundly manipulative and unproductive statement. You appear to be saying that either you get your own way on AA, or AA is useless - there's no middle ground. No standard but your own.

I don't agree with the statement. There is plenty of room for intelligent, matter-of-fact, negotiable discussion that is still direct and pointed. Without over-emotional trash-talk that is repetitive and no longer of any interest.

If AA weren't open to criticism of vB this sub-forum would not exist.



So I guess I'm hoping that either reasonable un-emotional posting, critical or otherwise, in discussions helpful to me commences ... or that those who can't be reasonable and un-emotional go flame on a flame-board elsewhere ... or ... well, anyway, whatever has to happen so that reasonable un-emotional posting allowing discussions helpful to me can carry on. If you get my drift. That's my pov.

 

Nick and staff, I don't think you have to justify your moderating standards to people who can't adapt to them. I fully support your decision to keep AA for a certain standard of discussion, including criticism of software vendors and whoever else, and not allow it to be dragged to lower standards.

Participation in any forum is an agreement to adhere to the rules and standards of that forum. Those that can't do that belong on another forum with standards more consistent with their preferences.

At this point in my forum experience I've come to believe that the lowest standard of behavior tolerated is where the forum as a whole tends to go. People who prefer that level gravitate to the forum because they aren't welcomed elsewhere. And as the lowest standard becomes more prevalent, people who prefer a higher standard start to stay away.

AA has stretched standards trying to allow some people with harsh opinions about vB's marketing mistakes to have a public voice, knowing that the choice of communications by those people means they aren't able to express that choice elsewhere. With kudos for the good intentions of AA, I do not believe AA owes anything to posters who prefer bashing to rational discussion. If those posters have no other forum to bash vB that is their own accountability (but sounds like there are other places they can vent ad naseum.)

IMO

It would be great to have a real discussion of whether IB is turning the ship around, how they might do that and how long it would take to affect the negative impressions of disgruntled customers - and even if some people don't think they were off course in the first place. Wonder if that is possible without putting several of the posters on ignore?

Hope my posts are not out of line ... I'm not completely up to speed on the AA events of the last few days.

 

Totally agree.

I have no problem at all with people "ranting" and making their strongly held dissatisfaction with vB (or any other company) known.

The two things I don't like, which AA doesn't like either, is

1. Abuse/insults, either aimed at other members or staff of companies etc.
2. Hijacking other threads to expound an unrelated opinion.

And as I've said before, this site has a tricky line to walk with the "no censorship" ideals against the "keeping it from being a hate site" problem, which i think AA handles very well.

Also sometimes people may need to accept that a moderating decision isn't always going to go their way, and sometimes people need to accept that even they don't always agree with it. I'm sure I've had posts edited or moved, but nobody's trying to censor me, they're just trying to keep the site in line with the vision of the owners.

As fellow admins surely we all understand that. You'd think so.

 

Actually Gnatster I think you underestimate the site a little, if I may say so.

The very fact that Ray made that one time post proves that they do read this site and they do consider it important - certainly they did then.

You think they don't read it - I strongly suspect you're wrong.

 

Until there is a return of monies wrongfully paid by or demanded from customers, nothing has changed. How else will Internet Brands avoid the criticism? By putting out a good product so it can sweep under the carpet the true nature of what management pulled on its customers? The only people who don't think they were off course are the ones who (a) weren't affected, (b) didn't care about being held up with a 2 week unannounced "presale", (c) don't care to sympathize with people who were affected and just want to enjoy their product they bought, or (d) don't see what the big deal is about being taken for a measly "few bucks."

Internet Brands committed what it seems many believe could be considered real fraud. I've read stories of people being sold version 3.8 by people who knew the customer would have to imminently be required to pay v.4 upgrades of $130 per license (plus lose the $50 for every add-on they paid). If true, what is there to talk about? I know that Internet Brands did not properly disclose to customers the fact that it was not going to offer the pre-sale to customers without an active maintenance subscription and we received no prior notice of this. When we did receive an "offer" it was marked up with a 50% penalty on the maintenance fee.

Unless Internet Brands decides to refund money for the lack of disclosure so as to grab the cash, there is nothing to talk about. If they sold record licenses like they claim and keep rubbing in the faces of those who they held up, we are talking about BIG MONEY in the aggregate. It may be "just a few bucks" to you but (a) it's a LOT of money to some people, and (b) it's the point of the misconduct that matters, not the amount. Did you watch Superman 3? Even if you stole a half penny from every employee's paycheck it's still stealing and not the kind of people/company that one probably wants to do business. As you'll learn, if you deal with people who can do it to you once, they will very likely do it to you again - and the company and management has stayed the same. What has changed? There aren't even worthless apologies for the low hanging misconduct.

So if you want to talk about whether vBulletin and Internet Brands are being successful in sweeping under the carpet what they did, go right ahead and create a thread for that. But this isn't "turning around the ship" it's "weathering the storm of justified criticism." Please understand that anything else feels like a slap in the face of every customer who was taken by this sickening deception by Internet Brands.