Another vBulletin 5 forum has asked for a refund.

People have the right to complain, VB has the right to ban anyone they want off of their forum.

As a business owner, you get to chose that. There are consequences, but... you have that right.

Lets be honest... there are trolls who did not own VB who would register just to give them flack. How did it help? It did not.

I look at it this way, if you are are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Don't come to me with complaints if you do not have solutions.

I purchased a VB5 license here from Brandon. I played with the Demo, and knowing the issues, I feel they will be fixed in the future and it was worth it. CUSTOMERS have the right to complain.... people who have nothing invested? Just a bunch of trolls.

 

Big Al. I almost liked your post. However, comparing anyone to Hitler....well, sorry. I couldn't go with that.

At any rate. The fact IB have banned some of the most outspoken people (me being one of them), just means people will go to other places to vent their frustration and displeasure and that then turns out to be another huge mistake IB is making and actually shows they just don't understand the Internet. And, I say "IB" in that comment purposefully, because it doesn't matter who does what and why at IB, the whole team must take responsibility for the consequences as a team in the end and deal with the consequences properly. Such consequences are things like a very well followed Youtube channel making a video about how crappy the software was and how they felt they were poorly treated. Or, when you search for "vbulletin 5" on Google, one post from another admin forum has made it to the first page of results, and I kind of had to laugh at what the result points at too, because it is where IB currently stands with vB5 in a nutshell.

I absolutely and unequivocally agree. I think the software is still a beta and is still not fit for purpose today.

And to try and end this on a halfways positive note. I'll say this.

IB is still forking out a lot of money for vB5 and putting a lot of effort into it, which means they are still trying to get it right........

and I'll just stop there...

Scott

 

@S. Molinar. Thank you for your post. I stated that some of them are BEHAVING like little hitlers and I believe that when censorship is used to stop valid and genuine complaints that are offered to help and assist the management of VB to improve, then this reminds me of the actions of Hitler and others to stifle dissent

Like you I try to be word specific and I called NO one Hitler, I stated that some are acting like him.And the censorship to quell dissent is just like him. The facts will never alter.

This is not the place for me to post about the actions that have been taken against me by a staff member there, for speaking the absolute truth. As this would disrupt the harmony of this site, and I have no wish to do this.

However In my choice of words I have been kind. Believe me.

If people act in a bad way then they will be held accountable for it, I would much rather be praising some good actions than exposing bad ones.
Indeed I have posted a few times about the efforts put in by some dedicated people on VB who have put in a lot of hard work to fix VB5. and I have even posted a public thank you recently to one of the VB staff members who assisted me with a techy problem.

I have read your posts with interest and enjoyed them. The truth is always a joy to read.

I believe that you have a lot clearer understanding of what the customers want as you LISTEN to them and Your ideas to me seem to be very close to the mark.

IMHO, the path you are going along is the right one. The answer to having the best and most desired software seems to be within your grasp. Please expand your thoughts along the line you appear to be travelling and I am sure you will see the answer.

If you do not fully understand this, please contact me privately and I will do my best to explain.

Thank you again for your comments, they are appreciated.

 

I had an immensely long response I decided against posting in response- it felt good to type it all out- but let me just respond with this- I disagree with the premise- Only the person in charge of Marketing could be accused of calling it great- and that is his job. Also we never banned anyone for "pointing out the truth" we KNOW the truth- anyone who uses the VB.com forum knows the truth. We didn't hide VB5, we put it out front and center on our own forum, no deceptions- it was all there for people to see from day 1. The only people banned were warned repeatedly not to continue posting nonsense- If there were already a dozen posts with the same stuff in it the fact we didn't allow a dozen and one doesn't mean we were censoring anyone- just reflects the reality we need to try to keep running the forum as a place to exchange useful information. Dozens of threads that just say "VB5 sucks" are not helpful to anyone, but even those were not deleted universally- only when they got annoying.

 

I am just hoping that Internet Brands / vBulletin is smart enough NOT to show up at ForumCON, as if they do they are going to wish they never went.

 

This is a load of BULLSHIT Joe.

If this was true the Licensed customer feedback forum would be viewable by all.

 

"quod erat demonstratum."

"I rest my case"

 

I disagree... First, let me say I don't really care either way about whether licensed feedback is visible or not... But, had anyone come to the VB5 Community forums in the days after the forum switched from VB4 to VB5, all the errors/bugs in VB5 would have been front and center for them to experience first hand.

Those who bought VB5 and then complained it didn't work as the expected obviously didn't do any research- had they used the forum it would have been obvious the state it was in. The people who bought VB5 without visiting the forum therefore wouldn't have seen the Licensed Feedback forum anyway. (I'm not saying it's "their fault" for buying bad software only that if you don't do research it doesn't matter if a forum is visible or not.)

Also, it's not like what is talked about there is secret- it is on every webmaster forum out there. There are twitter accounts talking about what goes on there- whole blogs even- there is nothing said there of value that can't be found with Google somewhere else.

If we were trying to hide VB5 we never would have switched our main forums to VB5. There is middle ground between not hiding a product and not celebrating it... that is where we were after the 5.x release. As the product gets better you will see the marking pushes resume.

 

Joe all the bad comments about vBulletin 5 are being deleted or moved to the licenced feedback area... and area where non VB customers can't see.

That is WRONG. It shows to me that you (well not you Joe, but you vBulletin) are trying to hide the honest feedback about the software.

 

I don't see them on the lineup... At least as a speaker
http://www.forumcon.com/speakers

 

Anti VB5 comments in Pre Sales - http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/foru...and-the-cms-replacement?p=3969756#post3969756

Anti VB5 Comments in Site Feedback - http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/foru...s-accessing-vb5-via-ipad-native-web-browser-s

Poll showimg > 60% think VB5 is worst VB ever in VB5 Feedback Forum - http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/foru...945289-what-do-you-think-of-vb5-customer-poll

All of he above forums are public and all have dozens of threads critical of VB5 so I am sorry but you are just wrong we're trying to hide honest feedback. Honest feedback is always welcome. We delete troll posts and we move topics that belong in licensed customer feedback, but if you post a valid topic in a valid forum, regardless your opinion, it will stay where it is.

 

Another classic. One thing I have to give you Joe, is that your posts are always good for a laugh.

 

From vbulletin.org. An official vBulletin website.


I know other dishonest websites that suspend instead of banning, so they too can say things like, "Also we never banned anyone for "pointing out the truth"

 

Oh dear silly me, I seem to have lost track of the thread on VB.org titled "VB5 is a joke"

Can anyone help me? I know it must be visible, as Joe said,

I did a search on the site and even searched the posts by a staff member who locked it, but alas I cannot find it.

I just did a Google search and received this message.

It must be a glitch, as I was logged in and Joe insists it is not secret.

 

IMHO, you should. The meaning behind that decision, an act of censorship and the fact customers find out more ugly truths after they buy the software, directly affects your job as a vb support person. Getting proper support done and being effective at it means first having a basis of honesty and trust between the company and the customer in place and the decision to hide the customer feedback forum is quite contrary to this goal.

This is true. So you are admitting, vB5 was very poor software too, when they moved it to vB.com? You'd be the first staff member to openly admit that in public and not just say "it has issues". Please also do tell us, vB5 still isn't a viable"gold" version in its current form either. That would be a great confession.

Ok, ok, ok.....now this is a really nice point. So you are saying, people who might want to buy vB5 should first do their homework and read up about how poor it is all over the Internet, before they decide to buy it? Oh, boy.... Thanks for the honesty Joe, but you should start looking for a new job. Why? Because IB is trying desperately (like with their last pathetic email blasts) to sell something totally different and you are openly doing the opposite. Remember vB5 is "The best software on the market"! OMG! And you have just pointed it out openly, that it isn't the best or might have real bad issues people should discover by reading around the Internet? LOL! If I were IB and thought like IB, I'd fire you for this post. But, I am not like IB and I agree with you. But again, your honesty here isn't in jive with what IB wants to "fool" people with ... be careful Joe!

Nope. Absolutely wrong. If a customer is a potential buyer for a forum software, then the first thing they will do is go to the software's forum and read up a bit on it and what is happening within the customer community there. I would expect that to be a minimum on "research" any customer will do. If the most outspoken negative feedback is hidden, then you are hiding a lot more of the truth from that customer. That is simply a very, very bad situation. As I said above, it means you're not being as honest about your issues, you don't face them or don't have to face them and deal with them publicly and we all know IB exceeds at avoiding the real issues. The fact the forum is hidden only helps this cowardly stance. Oh, and let's also not forget, IB's management just shrug off the forum criticism anyway. They think the community is just a bunch of whiners and don't at all represent the "rest" of the customers (the fools), who use vBulletin. A stupid, stupid, stupid way of thinking. It basically shows, they just don't understand the actual core advantage of their own software. Word of mouth advertising! Instead, they continue to produce poor decisions one after another and shirk their responsibility to their own customer community. That is just faaaannntaaastic!

Let's look at this from a different perspective. If IB did mostly everything right and even made mistakes, but dealt with them smartly and publicly, then there wouldn't be a need to have the licensed customer feedback forum hidden at all, right? So the fact it is hidden means things are going wrong....very wrong and IB isn't dealing with these wrongs properly either. Remember, the forum structure was only changed after vB4 came out and customers went amok about the poor quality then. Before the vB4 release, there was no hidden licensed customer feedback forum. Actually, it was the announcement feedback forum and I remember pages of pages of "wow", "this is cool", "thanks guys" and other such positive comments. They are all but gone now.

Yes, vB5's crappiness is now well known and all over the Internet, so I have to agree, hiding the feedback forum isn't all that important or imperative to the situation. The crappy quality of vB5 just totally overshadows anything that might even be good in vBulletin or said on vB.com now.

I am not sure why you are defending anything that deals with vBulletin currently Joe. It is a totally loosing battle, because IB has stacked the deck against you big time. vBulletin is in a really, really deep hole now and until IB changes their tune, their way of thinking, their perspective about their customers, until IB's management makes a paradigm change, every time you try to defend their way of business will end up in an argument with customers, which only you will loose. It isn't your battle to win either Joe. The battle must be made by those above you and they aren't even giving it a fight. It is actually obvious, they think things are "great" as they think "vBulletin 5 is the best community software ever!". What a joke. They need to start seeing vBulletin and its customers, its whole business differently and dealing with their past decisions as mistakes and doing what is right accordingly. I am not sure they will though and actually am pretty sure they won't and that means the next stupid mistake/ decision is inevitable. Just like sending out emails saying vB5 is the best forum software, when it so clearly isn't. How stupid or desperate can you get?

So stop defending vBulletin Joe, because you are just as much in that deep whole as the rest of the vB team and it just isn't worth defending right now. Continue to point your defending upwards to the people above you, as long as you have a job.

Scott

 

Well said.

 

I'll stop you right there- vBulletin.org is not vBulletin.com. vBulletin.org is run by volunteers and the main project is headed by Paul. There is a lot less tolerance for nonsense on vb.org because it is a site for modifing vbulletin, not for airing your opinion of the software. No higher ups ever read vbulletin.org looking for feedback and if you don't like VB5 or amything else complain at vb.com, it has nothing to do with the subject or mission of vb.org.

 

The decision to hide it was made before I was involved with the community, it has always been the way it is to me and while I am inclined to agree it gives the impression we are hiding things you admit later in this post nothing is actually hidden.

There are legitimate times we may want to only communicate to licensed customers, ideally I suppose a general feedback forum could be public with a private discussion forum as well for appropriate topics, but in the scheme of things I think need to be fixed I consider this a low priority for reasons already explained - anyone doing any research on VB5 would have seen the bugs and performance first hand.

I'm admitting I was not happy with VB5 when the vb.com site was upgraded to it. I don't think it was any secret that was a common feeling of both the staff and the customers.

The gold label has been explained multiple times. It will never be used on VB5, gold = first non beta release, a point we already passed. Gold has no more special meaning beyond that.

Don't put words in my mouth. IF people do research on VB5 they will easily find negative comments on VB5, both on vb.com and sites like this. There is no conspiracy to hide bad coments. Earlier I already posted links to public threads on vb.com that should be privte or deleted if we were trying to hide anyhting, but we're not.

I don't need a job, I help people with their VB issues because I want to.

HA! "Pathetic" when we do send an email (5.0.2) and "trying to hide something" when we don't send an email (5.0.1)

Classic Kobayashi Maru... Going to stop here, you have a good heart Scott but I believe you are blinded by a hate for the company you are unable to give any credit where credit is due if it means giving it to IB or the VB5 product. They each have faults, but very few things in life are all bad or all good and IB/VB5 are no exception.

I wonder if your views will change when your own product comes to market. We'll see I guess.

 

Perhaps they should. As it is advertised as an official Vbulletin site.

So is this yet another lie Joe?

Quite so, but many are PAID employees of Vb, like you.

Is the system so bad that the paid staff are unable to pass along to the management the valid concerns of the customers? or are you all afraid of the possible consequences of being the one to stand up and tell them the truth.

Joe, the concern is that the customers are being fed misleading and deceptive Bullshit and the customers are intelligent enough to see this.

If a customer purchased a product, partially or wholly based upon the recommendation of the seniors of any of the "official" VB sites and the product failed to live up to these claims, then it is to be expected that they will not be happy. blaming the customers for buying a dud is the height of hypocrisy, and frankly is disgusting!

Comments such as the statements that VB is the best etc, etc, that are clearly misleading should be apologized for and compensation made.
Instead, the customers of VB are banned, have their posts deleted or moved, so they cannot be seen and derogatory and sarcastic comments are made against them by the very people who should be helping them.

I am not familiar with US law, but In Australia a product
"MUST BE FIT FOR THE PURPOSE IT WAS INTENDED FOR" and MUST also be of "Merchantable quality" I would think that it is similar in US law but I am not qualified to say for sure.

In many cases the VB.org staff are the meat in the sandwich and normally would have the support of the customers, but when you carry on with the crap and take ill advised action to stifle valid and genuine posts you lose a lot of sympathy you may have had.

It is obvious to ANY person of reasonable intelligence, who has read the concerns voiced in overwhelming numbers, that there is a major problem. (It is the measure of the man in how he deals with it)

The more I check the more of this misrepresentation comes to light.

I have seen some backing off by VB staff members, but I have not yet seen any apology for the unbelievable misrepresentation nor the cowardly acts to hide the truth.

 

[QUOTEThere is no conspiracy to hide bad coments. Earlier I already posted links to public threads on vb.com that should be privte or deleted if we were trying to hide anyhting, but we're not.][/QUOTE]

Post number 34.

Joe, I am a License holder for V3 and V4. I paid for them both and they are current, so I would consider myself to be one of the "licensed customers"

You state that you are NOT hiding anything.
Why then, as a licenced customer am I denied access to this thread ?

Surely it has not been moved to hide it.

Please do not come out with the crap that it is because I am not a holder of VB5. As a VB customer I have a right to check and become informed about a possible upgrade to my V4. Even you have made a big issue about customers checking before considering a purchase, so why is VB.org hiding things?