vBulletin to restrict licensed customer feedback even further?

Apparently soon:

• vB5 customers will have access to vBulletin 5, 4 and vBulletin 3.8 licensed feedback forums. They aren't restricted to vBulletin 5 licensed feedback forums.
• vB4 customers will have access to vBulletin 4 and vBulletin 3.8 licensed feedback forums. They aren't restricted to vBulletin 4 licensed feedback forums.
• vBulletin 3.8 customers only have access to vBulletin 3 licensed feedback forums.

So now, you'll have to own a vBulletin 5 license to comment on vBulletin 5 in the licensed customer feedback forum. Seems like a 'good' way to stop the older fans criticising vBulletin 5 by forcing them to either buy a license/upgrade for it or stick to the public vBulletin 5 feedback forums.
What do you think about this? Is this a good decision, or just another way to hide customer dissatisfaction?

 

I hope the feedback forums are visible to all but only license holders can comment in their respective forums. If you haven't purchased a product you can't leave feedback on it. If you want to leave feedback on the VB.com forum itself there is already a Site Feedback forum where those posts would be appropriate.

However I have no inside knowledge on the when/how/if of this stuff so your guess is as good as mine.

 

Yep, just when you thought it couldn't get worse, it gets even worse.

"Let's hide the feedback, so no one can see it, except only those who should. The ones who paid for it and with that payment, have the right to complain about it."

And I bet the next rule will be,

"anything off-topic will simply be deleted, so if you speak your mind about vB5 in the vB4 feedback forum, it will simply get deleted."

Why else would they want to do this stupid move?

That is a terrible way to go about running a software support forum, where your software has real and serious issues. That is taking the core of what is still right about the software and also stabbing it straight in its heart.

and that core and heart is.......

TRANSPARENCY!!!

The whole decision is screaming censorship and is just wrong, wrong, wrong. It is against what so many Americans have fought for, still fight for and is part of the American way. Freedom of Speech! The decision is anti-american. The fact the licensed customer forum is hidden from public view is shameful and now that should be split up too? OMG!

How many people want to use a product from a company that wants you to pay for being able to freely speak about that product?

The right answer to all their problems is to fix the damn problems. It is definitely not to shut up the customers, because they have the whole damn Internet to scream to. Gees, how even more close minded can they get?

"We are IB and we are the center of the universe!"

Scott

 

I also think AlexanderT, the customer who actually proposed the change or rather started the conversation, meant it all quite sarcastically, because at the end of his post, he wrote this.

Even Wayne, vB Support lead, seems subject to the IB "sickness" now. He says in that thread, in an attempt to make this decision sound logical and positive and how it will help customers,

Well, it isn't moderation. It is censorship and it is taking up time, because you are now very often simply deleting truths and the truth always comes up out of the cracks, no matter how hard you deny it or hide it or try to censor it. Even worse, it will come back at you with a fury, when you do.

You must face the truth and simply deal with it. That is the only escape.

Scott

p.s. I wonder if I will now be revoked of my right as a customer to even read the licensed customer feedback forum? Hahaha....ban the rebellious traitor!!!!

 

Wayne Luke has now said the standard licensed customer feedback forum is supposed to stay as it is. So maybe they think they are creating a "ranting room". I also don't see how that will save the staff any "moderation time".

Hehe, this is a pretty accurate post from jmurrayhead.

So true, so true.....

Scott

 

Except there is no freedom of speech on privately owned forums. Don't like it, don't post there. Don't like product, demand refund.

I would be a ok having vb have customer feedback section for well.... Customers.

As they are battling through their issues, having trolls cause more ruckus to get their 5 mins of fame, is not really conducive to those who well.... Actually paid for the product.

There are plenty of other places to make your voice heard.

 

After managing and serving over 70,000 members at our forum for 13 years, I must agree.

Although members come and go and our numbers average 42,000 at our site , before we chose to dive into an interactive web site in 1998, we decided to participate at other forums (the early UBB forums, Prodigy, AOL) for two years to get a feel for what paying customers want from the forum sponsor, what they won't tolerate, how to develop a Terms of Service (Forum Rules) template, and how to launch our first site (in 2000) with the rules already in place. The preparation has earned us an unbelievable positive score among our 42,000 members for being a respectful site for all to participate. Without the rules in 2000, it would have opened up the floods for lurkers, alias registrations, and a host of problems.

One of the basic rules is we require every member to register using a real first and last name and real location. Some members have been approved to use an alias to protect their unique name, but we know who they are and they still have to abide by the TOS.

Now, back to the topic here which is turning off certain areas to non-purchasers:

1. We have over 400 sub-forums at our site with dozens of User Groups that permit a member to upgrade their access to paid services. For those who are not upgraded, they are free to discuss the services and products in the lower access sub-forums . . . respectfully. The members who have higher access to the paid services area are prohibited to reveal any confidential material outside of that higher level, but are free to speak in general terms such as "I hold a license for the AAA product, and it has worked for me." or, "I had a license for the AAA product, but I had too many challenges to getting it to work, although there is clear evidence it works for hundreds of others."
   
   The key here is . . . respect. And as one of our administrators has added to the forum rule dialog, "If I invite you into my home as a guest and you are bringing a pizza that I asked you to buy, I don't expect you to pee on my carpet."
   
   
2. We believe that paying customers for our services and products (we have over 1000 items in our store that is supported on our forums), have a right to privacy among other buyers of the same product or service within an area where issues can be resolved. Our members tell us they trust us, but required verification or follow up to keep that trust in place.
   
   
3. If a product or service is not as described (a famous eBay rule) or fails to work within a reasonable period of time (as suggested by the Better Business Bureau), then we offer a refund.
   
   In the 24 years since our organization was founded in 1989, we can count on two hands the number of happy refunds we have offered people, well before it gets out of hand. The amount of money we would spend on refunds or adding customer support labor costs would not be anywhere near the cost of litigation or a bad report with the Better Business Bureau or consumer protection agencies. That is not to say we don't have nasty critics, as even the Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, General Motors, and every company has the nasty reviews. But our job is to keep them down relative to the vast number of satisfied customers and forum members we have served.
   
   
4. For non-paying customers, they are free to ask about the products or services in a pre-sale forums where other owners and customers can guide them with their advice, encouragement, and reviews.

This said, I agree with others that a private company (even a religion) is not a democracy within. They are by invitation only, have rules, and will be judged by their history, as our own country stands in judgment of the world at present.

What is VB's problem in 2013? They are placing rules (TOS) in effect that should have been placed in effect years ago. And the cat is out of the bag and will run wild until such time new licensee's and new members will register and abide with little question the new TOS to be in effect.

David

 

David, you hit the nail on the head.... why did not they not do it before?

Xenforo? but IPB for sure, they have two areas, for clients/customers and presale questions.

I guess when you have the majority marketshare and everyone is a fanboy, having them sell for you is ok, it is when the tide turns.... they don't want all that extra attention.

Eh, it is what it is.

The other key point is... respect. It is one of our big integral points, treat others with respect, even if you disagree with them, they have a right to have their opinion and beliefs.

When the forum is anonymous, and you can hide behind your avatar/username, you lose sense of respect.

 

Firstly, no customer should be considered a troll, no matter how bad they complain. If they cross the lines on decency or respect, then you handle that with proper rules and fair punishment. And for sure, you handle their complaints and let them know what to expect in order for things to get better for them. When that happens, you can often turn your worst "enemy" into your best evangelist.

Secondly, a customer does have a right to speak freely about a product, despite a forum being privately owned. Even when that customers isn't a customer. If they don't do it on your forum, they will do it somewhere else and that is the worst thing that can happen to you. It is much better having a complaining customer than none at all or much worse, complaining in other places on the Internet (or the world). Hiding feedback, even negative feedback, is just simply wrong. Creating it and not handling it is even worse.

David, although it sounds like you are doing well with your products, you might just want to rethink your strategy. You might even sell more of your product.

If you do good and you have great products and customers, then there is no reason to hide anything. Yes, lock a customer feedback forum down, so only customers can post in it. But that is it. Everyone should be able to see any forums customers post in. In fact, when you show your work to the public along with the feedback (good or bad) and you even show your genuine desire to help those naysayers to figure out their pain points, it shows you care as a company and it actually helps sell the products. Even better, when you have more customers correcting the naysayers or people with very negative feedback than there are naysayers or negative customers, then you basically have customers moderating and selling the products for you and that is very powerful marketing, probably the most powerful next to recommendations via word of mouth. vBulletin did this for about 9 years successfully and I believe it works too. It is why it isn't in place now, to answer that question. Showing you don't worry about negative feedback from anyone is a much better message than any hidden forum can say.

At vB.com right now, you have more people talking bad about vBulletin in the hidden licensed customer feedback forum than good. Even the few that talked good about the product have stopped trying. It is completely turned upside down and there is only one single reason. It's IBs fault. IB has shown

1. They can't produce decent software (edit: from the initial release).
(edit: 1.2 They take forever to get the poor initial release to something with proper quality.)
2. They have shown quality standards that are about as low as you can get. Someone has their priorities seriously mixed up.
3. Those people with the mixed up priorities don't care to show they do care and they actually do want a better vBulletin. They have yet to say the stupid mistakes they have now made multiple times will stop and how. The how isn't even that important. The fact they acknowledge the crap happened and they are at fault and will do something to change is enough. I bet with that one disclosure of intent to improve, then those ranting customers will lighten up. I know I would have. The next step would be to follow through and show the crap has stopped. But no, IB will continue and the next big step in a deeper pile of crap is going to happen again.

So, you get a raged mob of a handful of customers (note, much, much less than when vB4 was released), who rightly criticize THEIR product, even if they didn't buy the newest version. I'd agree with you all, if what the customers at vB.com were saying wasn't true. But it is. And that is the problem and no segregation of feedback in any form will fix the constant negativity.

You could say customers are the mirror of your own doing and there is absolutely no reason to hide the mirror and breaking it into small pieces doesn't help lower its reflection either. If you are ugly as sin, then you are ugly as sin.

Scott

 

Stating the problem with VB is the TOS is like stating the problem with an alcoholic is that he's not getting enough to drink.

 

I can understand a little bit why they might have thought it was a good idea.

I have no idea how they could not have possibly seen the backlash and criticism that was bound to come from it, though....and why that wouldn't have been enough for them to *not* restrict it this way.

 

We do not have trolls at our site.

None of our members are considered trolls, and very few members have baited other members or moderators into a fight, and all of them used their first and last name which aids in the belief that "If you're going to say something, imagine yourself speaking in front of a dear grandmother."

The few that broke the rules were not banned immediately, but were encouraged to abide by their "signed Code of Ethics". We go through a 3-step process before even consider cancelling their account. Our moderator trainees go through six months of training before they graduate as a moderator. As a result, they are cool, respectful, and never show a comment that suggests an ego.

And for the very few who were banned, we have chosen not to change their User Title to "BANNED". Instead, we use another more graceful User Title, which encourages them to reapply for reinstatement with a public apology (if required).

Customers who are not paid customers cannot gain access to the full support forum of our products and services. But we do offer a lower level of access to our site where they can speak freely, as long as their dialog is respectful and within the TOS. And in the lower level area, I cannot imagine what they would ask that could not be answered by either a paid customer or a moderator, except perhaps questions about support tickets when they in fact have not purchased the product.

Fox News tried what you propose, where everyone created a free User Account, and added their personal comments to the Fox News stories at foxnews.com . Within a few months Fox shut the whole process down because of trollers, alias members posing as others and baiting people, and a whole host of items that required heavy moderation. Today, the Foxnews comments feature is rarely available on selected news stories, but it has all but disappeared. Those folks who have their "rights" to post negative feedback on anything are still free to post them elsewhere on the internet, or spend $5 per month and get their own site to rant and rave about products and services. It is not going to hurt Fox News, and it is not going to hurt any of the General Motor forums where people want to complain disrespectfully on an open forum.

Even though VB may be closing their VB5 forum to owners only, there will still be the option to post VB discussions in their Chat forum.

Perhaps with VB Ver 5.0

But we are still running Ver 4.1, and the site is very stable and useful to us. If anyone asks, I would recommend the Ver 4.1 because I have lived through it to where it is a very good and stable forum software. The next version Ver 4.2.1 is already in the ticket stage, but there are no major surprises that I have to have now in order to get what I paid for. The average cost of owning Ver 4 over the years is around $50 per year for us, which is reasonable.

And if we need priority support, I go to freelancer.com or I call a former VB employee to pay him to make some adjustments. I also have the option of paid telephone support.

But for Ver 5.0, they have offered a refund ticket because I have not downloaded the software. I purchased it last year as a presale, and from what I see in the 5.0 release, I may not be interested in using it at all for the next two years. So my refund can be put to work over the next two years in other areas (perhaps purchasing an xenForo license and running a mirror site to see how our members like it)

Scott, they have acknowledged many of the problems with their 5.0 version, and they have stated they are not giving up in correcting the issues. But then some of us who own both 5.0 licenses and 4.0 licenses have asked them to first release 4.2.1. Their answer is they are working on both.

My review on their site is simply "VB 5 will be fixed", and "VB 4.2.1 will be released". I can say that with full faith based on by experience as a licensee of VB since February of 2000.

Yes, it will take time. And for those who cannot wait, I suggest they do as others have done in staying with a lower version that works and is stable. I see many licensees still using ver 3.8 and ver 4, and out site runs like a Corvette - fast page loads and good email delivery.

Question: Scott, do you own a Ver 5 license? If not, what version do you own?

David

 

I suspect they did not obtain enough Beta sites in order to flush out the bugs.

In the past they would offer beta versions to owners who would take the software into a live environment to shake out the bugs. They had plenty of owners willing to do that, and as a result the release would take at least a year.

Although some owners did take the Ver 5 beta live, perhaps there were not enough owners to aid in this shake-out - and they decided to turn the VB Support forum into a Live Test Lab (big mistake) - where all of us are now reporting bugs for them to consider.

(Imagine me buying a Ford Mustang in 1960 and told that it was the final release, and then waiting until 1965 when the gold release was fixed? - I did wait)

 

Wayne has since said this had nothing to do with licensed customer feedback forums- nothing will be changing there. They are/were considering restricting support forums to the licenses you own.

VB5 License - Access all support forums (to post, viewing is obviously allowed)
VB4 License - Access to VB4 and below
VB3 License - Access to VB3 and below

So this entire thread is based on something that was never happening.

 

I don't see anything wrong with this setup but..
What about everyone with the lower versions that want to take a look and see what's going on with the newer versions?
I'm okay with the above because I have a vb5 license still :p so I can still keep up to date on what's happening, although I haven't been there much lately.

*edit*

I see this posted by Trevor Hannant

And that doesn't sound bad in my opinion.

 

Sorry, but this is the thread that started the whole discussion.

And AlexanderT's comments were explicitly about licensed customer feedback areas.

What you are seeing is a backpedaling to make a stupid decision a better one OR they misunderstood the post and mixed in their intentions, which were already in the making, to try and say "Hey, we want to do this", without really reading what AlexanderT wrote.

It doesn't matter either way. What they now propose is acceptable and that is how you almost do it right by correcting yourself. At least the Support team still has it in them to make corrections. I just think a small apology should also be in line for the confusion (Wayne).

Scott

 

Yep. Restricting forum by license ownership? Talk about alienating your customers.

 

They've now said the decision is to restrict posting in the support forums per license ownership and supposedly still readable for all.

I ask myself then, is this making a solution for a problem, when there really isn't one (or really shouldn't be one). In a normal "correct" world, you'd have happy customers wanting to upgrade to the newest version and thus buying the newest version and posting in the newest version support forum for their newest version problems. It very rarely happens, that a customer posts in the wrong version support forum too. (Well, it rarely happened on vB-Germany.com)

Scott