The State of vBulletin today

I haven't made a post anywhere about this vBulletin fiasco, at least up until now.

I decided to make it here, as doing so at the official forums would appear to be unwanted, as well as a waste of time and might even get me banned there. And since a few of the vBulletin "powers that be" seem to be lurking and posting here, perhaps they'll take notice and maybe even listen to what in the end only amounts to just one customer's feedback.

So let me start by saying, that I guess I would classify myself as the "silent majority" type of person.

I'm typically the type of customer that when I get ticked off, I don't say a whole lot, don't make a big stink or create a big scene, instead I just don't return as a customer. And if asked, I'll quietly tell my story to others about my bad experience and explain why I don't deal with someone and won't deal with them anymore. But make no mistake, I'm not just one on to myself, I'm one of a larger "silent majority".

Now having said that, my background is that I started working with forums back at the end of the 90's, when forums really started to become a viable medium for hobbyists and people with specific interests etc.

And at that time, Infopop was the king of the hill with solutions like ubb.Classic which was a time when vBulletin didn't even exist. For those who were around back then and working with forums, I'm sure they'll remember the birth of vBulletin and how it came to be.

Now from what I see, vBulletin is making many of the exact same mistakes in their management approach that old Ted et al. from Infopop made, that eventually led to the more or less demise of Infopop's leading market position.

Now for those who were there, I'm sure they will remember (probably not so fondly I'm sure) that Infopop became really arrogant (among other things) and made a number of critical mistakes like essentially abandoning ubb.Classic and ubb.Threads users and then instead pushing their hosted solution on them, which in the big scheme of things was no doubt much more profitiable for Infopop. And very much like the vBulletin of today, what Infopop did was that they seemed to get into a never ending series of delays, direction changes, management changes, policy changes, pricing changes etc. that in the end left many Classic and Threads users in the lurch. As for their hosted solution, it never caught in a significant way and today it's not really offered anymore.

And once again, just like vBulletin is doing now, when people started to complain and whine, Infopop used a very similar approach in that, Infopop employees started rallying the troops as it were and starting banning overly vocal customers, editing and deleting threads they didn't like and generally speaking, essentially Infopop just dismissed people's complaints and instead of listening, adjusting and changing, they spent a lot of time running around doing damage control and doing their best to spin things so that they always looked wonderful to those not "in the know".

But for those "in the know", what happened was that the disgruntled customers grew and grew and slowly started trickling away to other products and mostly to vBulletin. And with that not so slow migration, not only did a lot of customers leave, but what also left was lot of expertise. So before too long, hackers and coders weren't spending their time and expertise on ubb but instead on vBulletin. And that just led to vBulletin becoming a better and better product.

Now I could go on and on about what I remember and what I think happened, but whatever the case, there is no denying that whatever anyone remembers, the end result is that vBulletin very quickly overtook Infopop and eroded their marketshare dramatically. So much so that eventually Infopop changed their name to Groupee and have all but disappeared from the forum biz at least as a viable option.

I would humbly suggest, that many of that the same ingredients are there today, for Invision or another product, to do the same thing to vBulletin, that vBulletin did to Infopop back in the day.

Now for me personally, I really don't have an axe to grind per se and have been a big vBulletin supporter and booster since moving away from Infopoop. But I'm not too happy right now, as I feel like I've been mislead in a number of ways by the new regime at vBulletin. Specifically in the areas of pricing, license changes and the blog licenses. And it would seem from the uproar that it would appear I'm not the only one who feels the same. And I'm really not too happy with the new approach on the official support forums with the censorship, spin etc.

So to suffice to say, I'm not too happy with vBulletin right now. And I don't really feel the same connection to vBulletin anymore as it doesn't feel or seem the same anymore.

So what I plan to do is, I plan to convert one of my smaller forums to IPB in the next little bit. This particular vBulletin license expired back in September, so there isn't much of a price incentive to stay with vBulletin given the new license pricing. By converting this one little site, my plan is to get used to IPB software and became familiar with installing it, setting it up customizing it, etc. At the same time, I'm going to keep running my other active vBulletin 3.8 licenses until they expire which is sometime during mid 2010 - I guess you could call my approach the "don't cut off your nose to spite your face approach".

When renewal time comes next summer for most of my vBulletin licenses, what I'll do is make decisions at that time on what approch is best for each community - that being to either continue on with vBulletin, or instead move to IPB or some other solution.

Given the fact that it would appear that I'll have no real price incentive to stay with vBulletin at renewal time and given the fact that I'm pretty ticked off with Internet Brands and vBulletin, there is a strong possibility I might move to IPB or other software. But time will tell I suppose.

So I guess the bottom line here is that you could say I'm really not impressed nor happy with vBulletin right now and it has just cost them one license and one community because of it. And that is something that vBulletin should take notice of, because there are many other little "silent majority" types like me who are feeling the exact same way right now and making the exact same decisions right now. And as people slowly move to other platforms, they will take along their talents and skill which will only stand to strengthen products like IPB and weaken vBulletin.

In the end, as the old saying goes, "the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour".

Hopefully Internet Brands and the management team will wake up before it's too late. :2cents: :ohi:

 

I hope you got a good vent. We feel your pain and support you.

But IB will hopefully wake up and do what? Release a statement "I'm really truly sorry but thanks for the cash!" This two week presale has been brutal in so many ways. After the hold up is over, there is nothing left but to sell a product that doesn't yet exist at full retail, customers be mostly damned. IB is a public company and guaranteed the prices will only be higher going forward and might be discounted only on occasion.

I have rarely seen a management team so inexperienced and backwards. But they believe they are more powerful than Microsoft and you'll pay, grumble, and walk away with egg all over your face. As a group, we've got to make decisions. If it's a hobby, it would bother me every time I use the product and for the same money you'll get a much better product at IPB or another solution, at least for the imminent future. And I'm sure it will work out just fine too. The decisions are yours and we're here for you.

 

Tweeted, nice post.

 

I think with all of this fiasco theyre going to lose out on sales hugely, three friends of mine have switched to IPB already, this being tweeted will add to the hundreds of others tweeting their upset over everything being re-tweeted and as Steve said in that leaked post ages ago, word of mouth got vb where it was and negative word of mouth could easily make them lose out completely.

Its a shame to see this happen to vb/vb customers, this silent majority as Gordie said I think could kill of the sales of vb almost completely as not everyone says what they think about all of this and the quiet ones are just as likely to spread the word as the ones who voice their thoughts.

 

I wonder if we can get #vBulletin to a trending topic on twitter.

 

\o.o/ Let's make that happen!

 

I'm hip to that jive. There's no way IB can censor us there.

And Gordie, beautiful write-up. Once me and FMB's design site is up, I'd like to request that you re-post it there, with your permission, of course.

 

Interesting post from the silent yet unhappy vbulletin customers. Nobody wants to see vbulletin fall but if it does then another solution will take it's place prity fast.

 

it takes 4,000+ tweets an hour to get a topic trending, seeing how there are only a few hundred vBulletin people on Twitter, it will be tough

I'm not leaving vBulletin, but I'm not limiting my options either.

 

I think what I'd like to see is for a change in direction and approach by IB. Back to more of the approach of the past would be a step in the right direction I believe.

Now here's a few ideas that would address some of my macro issues...

1 - IB should reach out to those who paid for the lifetime blog licenses - a group which I'm part of - and by reach out, what I mean is honor the original blog licenses and not force forum only users to purchase the Suite in order to continue using the blogs. I don't think that's a unreasonable request. Regardless, how IB thinks from a legal perspective or from just a good customer service perspective, that they can force people to essentially re-purchase something they've already purchased, is beyond me - and I'm not going to do it.

2- I think IB should consider something along the lines of grandfathering their existing customer's vBulletin Forum only licenses, by perhaps offering people the option to continue paying a yearly renewal fee to gain access to software updates if they so choose. That was the original agreement and those were the terms that most purchased the Forum licenses under and those terms should be honored. Now, if going forward people want to make the decision to change to the suite deal, on their own, then I would think it would be reasonable to expect people to accept a change in the licensing agreement as well.

3-I think IB needs to back off from the aggressive censorship approach that they seem to now be employing. I can understand there has to be a limit to everything in life, but banning people just because they post on the support forums that they plan to move to other software is unreasonable. And banning people who make comments on other forums is totally unreasonable and borders on the ridiculous from many perspectives including a legal one. Coupled with the fact, that many of these same people being banned are also loosing their access to critical software updates and to .org and to me at least, that's a clear breach of contract on IB's part - plain and simple. I can see the justification for banning someone from posting messages on the forums, but I can't see any justification for IB to not provide the service they sold and accepted payment for. They sold the service, they should therefore provide it - simple.

4-I think IB needs to be more clear on what they are offering with their new Suite product and also with respect to the license that comes along with it. Meaning, I think IB should allow people to make full assessments of the new software, by allowing them to be able to see it and test it out. This buy the software now and we'll show you the software later sales pitch is completely unreasonable. IB also needs to clarify what the exact benefits a customer gains, by purchasing a version license. Perhaps IB should guarantee the minimum amount of time a customer will get to run the license they are paying for. Because, as it stands now, IB could theoretically just change the version number in a few months time and effectively a customer has received the service they purchased. Again, that's totally unreasonable. And it's all well and good for people to estimate it will be 18-24 months out before version 5.0 is released, but the fact remains that it could just as easily be a week from now too, at least from a legal perspective. So what I would suggest is, that IB guarantee a minimum amount of time a customer will get to use a license. Perhaps, they could say something like, you'll get at least 24 months guaranteed, perhaps more, but certainly not less - GUARANTEED.

I don't think that's unreasonable, as IB will have to do something for people as they go forward anyway. Can you imagine a customer a year and a half from now getting a months use of version 4.0 and then being told they have to purchase a new license for version 5.0? That doesn't make sense and IB will have to do something just from a common sense point of view anyway. Common sense dictates that there has to be further offers coming.

At the end of the day, whatever anyone believes, in order to have a legal contract or agreement, there has to be a clear "offer" by the selling party and then clear "acceptance" of the offer by the purchasing party. If the offer isn't clear, you simply can't have acceptance by the customer as they don't fully understand what they are purchasing or understand the agreement they are entering into. That's contract law 101. So it's time for IB to make a clear offer to their customers, as without a clear offer (and the offer right now simply isn't clear), they can't have a valid contract or agreement.

For me at least, IB addressing those issues would be a good start in fixing things up for me.

Let's just say, I certainly don't plan to hold my breath waiting...but I also don't plan to turn over any more of my hard earned cash, in the absence of a change in philosophy either.

 

Thanks David - I appreciate the kind words.

Let's face it, in business, momentum is almost everything. And right now, the momentum is clearly going against vBulletin - and doing so for the first time that I can remember.

Thanks for the kind words. I'd be happy to post it elsewhere for you, or for any of you to re-post it elsewhere.

I certainly don't want to see vBulletin fail either. I, like many of you I'm sure, have invested a lot of time in my communities and into learning and customizing vBulletin. So there is little to be gained by anyone, in the failure of vBulletin.

-Gordie

 

Very nice posts, Gordie. You seem like a genuine guy, the kind of person that people would be proud to support and products they would patronize for the same reason customers did all these years at Jelsoft... until the buyout.

I don't want to disappoint you but what you propose will never happen. You're not dealing with people who care. You aren't seeing any money come back into the hands of long time supporters of vBulletin, ever. To start, none of these people physically saw the people who added great value to the product. Add that these people are the borg coming to conquer, assimilate and exploit. They look at you benevolent developers as brilliant but naive, techno-hippy fools who are unable to appreciate that you/Jelsoft left so much money on the table all these years and expect it to continue. All they care about is bottom line and their bonuses. The little people (customer base that mostly pays just a few measly hundred bucks) will never make a difference to care and will continue to consume given the perceived monopoly over php-based Internet forums. I can name a dozen signs that lead to this conclusion which is why you should not expect anything close to the mutually beneficial environment that the boys at Jelsoft gave to us and people like Wayne provided to the general development community.

With regard to wanting to see vBulletin fail, I don't care to wish harm on anyone. But I also am keen enough to recognize who is my adversary rather than my partner and what it is that needs to happen before the transformation to fair and reasonable manifests itself as a result of being humbled.

 

I want to see a revolution. I'm tired of companies screwing us in places that hurt. We, as consumers, don't realize that we have more power than the money we throw at the companies blindly, because we've all been brainwashed to believe that we are powerless. Bullshit.

 

Thats the thing, you cant say they'll never go back to how they were, IB could certainly get their act together and make all the changes we want in the next ten minutes for all we know, it is unlikely but with the state of such a little amount of people supporting them fully they may have a big change coming for us, a good one even, you can never say never

 

When you're bought out my another company...you have designated targets to hit...or else.

I didn't see anything that said...Jelsoft purchased by IB with a DBA. It went straight to vB Solutions.

No reversion unless the soul of vB as we know it buys itself back.

 

Hmmm,

it is nice to have good alternatives,such as IPB where I have administrated in for a short time and a long time member of a forum,that uses the IPB software.It is a good one to go to when leaving vBULLETIN.

However I wonder why a group like UBB.thread charge so darn much money for their software,when you can get most of what they have with a free one,such as myBB or SMF to name a few.

That is one reason why I never considered going to vBULLETIN because they charge for a software,that does not offer all that much more or better service than free ones.

Thanks for posting your complaint about vBULLETIN questionable decisions.

 

As you pointed out, the company went straight from Jelsoft to "we're the best forum software... so pay up and pick up the soap or pss off and get lost." The marketing choices suggest a group of people who think they are much smarter than the world has seen. The customers are bootstrapped fools who will no longer live off the generosity of "a good, honest return." Internet Brands bought a bargain that will allow these individuals to earn ridiculous bonuses, even during a prolonged recession, by exponentially increasing revenue streams through squeezing customers to the max who have no choice for other software. This is their business model for the recession and showing us that, if they have the gold, they will make all the rules and we will bend over and take them.

Unfortunately, you are correct about the soul of vBulletin. Even an exorcism will not seem to bring back what is clearly a level of ruthlessness that descends lower than Bill Gates in his heyday. It has been trampled and beaten out of the product.

 

I can't think of a better example for this than Modernbill. Anyone remember that fiasco? Probably the wrong group of users for that one, but lemme tell you, once they hit v5 and did the same thing, plenty of others came into play, and at least one more came out to dominate the arena.

At this point that wouldn't help IB at all, it would hurt them.
IB as a company have lost the trust of their community. You don't get that back by simply going back to the way things were, you get that back by proving you can be trusted, and resolving the problems.

What would it take to resolve the problems, as they sit right now?

1. IB needs to go back to a yearly based license UNTIL v4 comes out as stable
2. IB needs to get rid of the people causing the problem (in the company). This would be primarily Ray
3. IB needs to prove that they can keep their word to their customers by setting solid dates and living up to them
4. IB needs to treat all customers with respect (not just new, or old owners)
5. IB needs to start thinking of BOTH the customer and the company

Trust has been lost here, and it's key. You can't simply just roll back changes, say "we were joking" and expect everyone to trust you again. vBulletin was a trusted name, now, it's just a joke.

 

The other interesting and so far unanswered question is, what happens on November 1?

At that point, this upgrade promo will be over and where do they go from there?

I'm sure very few people will be renewing their licenses after that date for at least some period of time. Most who plan to renew will most likely be doing so now.

And if you look at it from a customer's point of view, it isn't a very attractive offer going forward after that date.

As a starting point, you've got existing license holders being treated just like new customers from a price point of view.

So for an existing customer looking to renew, they can pay for the unreleased Suite for $285 or they can buy version 4.0 of the forums only which isn't even released for $195 dollars. And then of course, a purchaser has no real guarantee or idea of how long they will be able to keep running the software as a new version could be released at pretty much any time. And a buyer will have really no idea of what the cost of upgrading to version 5.0 will be nor when it will be.

Contrast that with IPB's offer, which is slightly cheaper and has a more transparent upgrade policy, or contrast that with a free forum solution and vBulletin looks to have priced themselves and positioned themselves right out of reality.

For some of those reasons, I would guess this pre-sale is likely to be held over and more coupons and promotions are likely to be coming down the pipe in the future.

What other choice do they have?

 

They said the sale price would never be as low again. This could mean starting with smaller discounts to ones that will be $1 more than the existing offer. It's still a pathetic offer because upgrading forums only is NEVER worth it - $175. If they change that price then the representations to existing customers who paid that price were told a big fat one. At this point, I really don't care. It's their wall they pressed themselves against and tortured the customers in the process.