Ripping/Cloning Styles

I'm just wondering how people feel regarding ripping/cloning styles created by other sites, and the actual difference between the two.

I consider cloning to be a design that was inspired by another design or media, but still credits the original. While I still don't consider it COMPLETELY right to do, I won't say much about it when I see it, as nearly every design I see now a days is clearly inspired by something else, and it is hard to be original.

I would consider ripping to be the actual copying of a site, and in the worst case not properly crediting the original.

I know with the way vB4 design is, and their stylevars being a complete mess, people are limited to what they can do (To a point), and that most of the releases aren't made by actual designers (Not bad mouthing the styles, just saying what I think).

Recently, there was a style posted by a member (I won't link the topic, or post the members name as I'm trying to see how other people feel about this topic) that was clearly ripped from a influential vBulletin products site.

The logo was completely the same as the original site (Other than wording, but placement of text and such were the same). Colors were almost identical (Within a few shades of each other), and even used the companies terminology within the title of the release thread.

Nowhere within the thread did the OP mention where he got the inspiration, and even denied it outright to the companies spokesperson on vBorg (Or one of them). As the post went on (For another 2 pages, once with me posting), he admitted to 'cloning' the style, yet still didn't update anything to say as such.

Also within the release thread, he was offering as a service that he would rip/clone other sites upon request.

I'm wanting to see what other people think of this situation, and whether they share the same opinion as I do regarding this.

(If parts don't make sense or theres a typo, its because I've yet to sleep, and had surgery on my hand the night before, so its hard to keep my thoughts together).

 

That's really an interesting question ... ethically, culturally, legally ... especially if we put aside all the people who may be inspired by, but won't copy someone else's design out of personal pride.

I think if someone copied 95%-100% of a forum skin/design into their own forum, and the forums were not remotely in the same topic area, it is likely not to be noticed by most visitors. That doesn't make it right, but it reduces the embarrassing questions factor.

I think if users are likely to notice both forums with almost identical appearances their first thought could be that the forums have the same ownership, and are related in some way. That could raise issues, imo, especially if the original were a high-profile site - either very large or corporate. It would be the same as if 2 storefront websites looked the same. It's misleading in terms of public expectations, if that makes sense.

I know intellectual property law is always evolving. Aside from whether copying appearance/format is 'right' or not, there's a danger of tripping over both a law and an angry owner of the original. Copying is a problem for everyone from fashion designers to toy manufacturers. I'm sure the internet is catching up.



Here is some corporate experience from the other side, the pov of the whoever's work was copied: (I'm not a lawyer - this is not real legal advice)

- If someone copies something of yours publicly, even if they did so illegally, you still must actively attempt to get them to change it to support having the legal system back you up. Copying is rampant and, if no one cares, the legal system is not likely to do anything about it. You must act as if you care, strongly and consistently over time. You must look out for copying of your work and always follow up where you find it. (You don't have to find every instance.) (This has historically been true of duplicate company names, logos, and other visuals. Also products, cheap knock-off toys, handbags, men's ties ...)

- In addition to the above action, you must be using it publicly, frequently and widely yourself. The law has been known to favor not the first person who created it, or the first who used it publicly, but the company or person the thing is most identified with in the public mind.

What I learned is that the legal process was more about pragmatism than fairness. If you own a company and like some other company's logo, and they are small, local and not showing it much, you can plaster it on signs and letterheads and get them out often over a wide geographic area, and end up owning that logo.

I once worked for a new start-up company that took another company's corporate name, colors and a very similar logo. The other company had been in business for over a decade, they were publicly traded, but they were in a very limited niche market and most people had never heard of them. The company I worked for just started using the name/logo package and plastering it over advertising and correspondence everywhere across the U.S. and even internationally. We were required to have it on every external email. The new company ended up with it, legally, the other company had to change their name & logo. That was 10 years ago and to this day I see business news articles that confuse which company belongs to the name.

 

My skin was ripped. You can download it on warez sites. Sad thing is my friend made it and it was originally one of a kind specifically made for my site.

 

I HATE when people rip off other themes. Seriously, nothing pisses me off more... I think there's no need to post more myself, or I'd get banned .

 

I've copied designs... When I started out designing, and that was just to learn how to do things. I would -never- think of ever releasing something that was heavily inspired (Close enough to the original design, that it could become an issue), or ripped outright. I find such actions disgusting, and disrespectful to the people who are actually taking the time to design (I've had my work ripped and stolen, and its not enjoyable to deal with).

In the example I posted, the design was just changed to a different logo; everything else was the same, down to colors being just a few shades apart. Also because the skin is released as an addon to the product (As far as I know, or its used as a way to advertise their project), the topic area is exactly the same.

What gets me with the example I posted was, members of the vBorg community were siding with the releaser? I don't know whether it is due to the large price tag of the product the design originated with, or whether they were just siding due to it being released, but the company in question was basically being bad mouthed for posting that their design was ripped. The worst part is, a moderator at vBorg posts in the thread on the request of the OP, without saying anything about the ripped design, making it seem as though they do not care about the matter.

Laws concerning IP for the internet are still very lax. The most that generally can be DMCA, yet many cases are ignored due to the blatant abuse of DMCA, or aren't dealt with by the hosting company (If you have to go that far).

- Going back to the example; The company can't say much, as they were intending to release their style at a later point. They have done this with the majority of their styles. In other examples, the most I think could actually be done is to ruin their public image (Posting the issue on big forums, and getting support from large communities), but that can always bite someone in the ass by being viewed as a bully.

- Again, going back to the way IP laws concerning the internet are, theres very little that can be done. If its an outright copy of a logo, and is copyright infringement, or their using your branding, I can see this being viable.

Apple is well known for this practice... Going back through articles, within the last 5-6 years you can see various copyright infrigements, or brand infrigements (iPhone - Cisco, iPad - Fujitsu, and others). My father has had this same issue as well, where being a small self-owned business, his brand was infringed upon by a company started from a Pakistan company, and they have tried to claim that his work is theirs (My father creates props for movies like Pirates of the Carribean and others).

The original company probably didn't copyright their name and logo, which is what allowed your old company to do that. Most businesses don't realize that you have to take the steps to protect your brand, otherwise someone can come in and take it over.

I've had this happen as well, and it gets seriously frustrating... I managed to get one of my themes removed at one Warez site, just because I went directly to the administrator and talked it out with him. I doubt that'll happen with more than 1% of the warez scene though.

This is probably a sensitive topic for most forum owners ;p.

 

Legal dispute over who owns the phrase Who Dat!

"Who dat" has to be as old as humankind. It used to be something people said to babies. But it's become part of the fan's rallying cry for the New Orleans Saints. So it's being put on t-shirts and items for sale. So everyone wants a piece ... the musician who says he was the first to put it to music for the Saints, the Saints, the NFL, the independent t-shirt sellers ...

But maybe if it comes down to who uses it the most, this Saints-loving dog owns it.

There is no controlling who anything exposed to the public is used, including forum skins. People can discuss and fight over it, but it's a given good ideas will be used again, rightly or wrongly.

 

This is the exact reason I will not spend money on a custom skin.
This is the exact reason why I will not build a skin for my self.

Some people have said to me that my skin sucks i and that it is to close to the vBulletin default style. Well I like it that way. I went out and spent the a few days of my time to build a custom skin for a site and other sites came and ripped it. It was no longer personal to my site. That is why I did it from the get go. So now I do not go all out with my skins. It is these people that make me sick. It is these people I would like nothing more then to grab by the neck and squeeze till they turn blue.

I do believe these are the same people that if you left your door unlocked they would go in your car and take everything they can just because its unlocked.
Regardless its still stealing. Very wrong.

Now if I used the colors of your site and not an exact rip there is a big difference.

 

Some of the busiest vB 2 and 3 boards online use the default theme, with just a basic header/logo change and manage to do quite well at that, so I don't see why there is suddenly this hate-on for the default theme of vB 4 and a drive to get everyone to switch to something custom. Give it time, people will get used to it.

 

Mmm... It is discouraging to think that someone will still your work (Or work you paid for), but I still think it is nice to have uniqueness in the way your forum looks.

What really gets me, is when someone says its -their- work. I have had this done to me, and it is like a slap in the face. It was for a design where I had spent the better part of 3 months, as I designed it from the groundup, than re-coded much of the forum it was for. A week later I saw another site running my theme (A 'competitor', who was known for doing these things).

With my example, it was more than just a matter of colors, as they copied the logo as well, and tried to say it was theirs originally.

Its not a drive to have people switch to custom, its more a drive for people to not copy other designs.

I know with the way vB4 is, most people are just changing colors and the heading and such, but when even the logo used was copied, its just disrespectful.

He's now expecting people to pay $130 for his service, which is just disgusting.