Has IB turned the ship around?

Well, I'll throw my two cents into this thread.
Number one, you as a customer pretty much have three options with a company when you're not happy with customer service:

1. Continue using the product despite your concerns.
2. Switch to a competitor.
3. Fuss to customer service and perhaps convey your frustrations in public and hope for a change of heart.

That's pretty much the extent of it. Some have grudgingly chosen #1, others went #2 and seem to be quite happy. Still more chose #3, which is not a problem at all, initially. The only folks I feel sorry for are those who bought the blog, which turned out to be practically vaporware and then those who renewed recently and seemed to be required to pay $130 if they want vB 4.0.

For those of you who got caught with your pants down, post-renewal, that's your own fault. You chose to game the system, and in the end you lost. That's not IB's problem, they(vB) let you live off of that licensing structure for years. It was one of those things where they let you take advantage of and simply look the other way. That honeymoon is over, things have changed like it or not. Read the contract, which is a binding agreement you signed up with. The possibility for this to happen was clearly there, and no, no one has a right to a contract renewal. Not sure if some of you are old enough to rent yet, but at the end of your contract, the rental company can up it as they please when you sign the next contract. Frankly they could rent the house to someone else for more if they so choose. Not a great way to do business in this case, but it's perfectly legal.

Anyway, I keep seeing the comments about acting like kids, and I have to agree. Instead of acting like a mature consumer, most want to act like the middle schooler whose friend says something bad about them so they turn around and spread rumors and such trying to destroy that person's reputation. It's gone so far to see people inventing fake DMCA notices (which IS ILLEGAL, by the way) and resorting to insulting lower to middle echelon staff members who, crazy as this idea is to some, have to work to make money! On top of that, folks question the code quality yet they themselves have not seen the code, nor could they really tell you much about what 100 queries even means. (Thanks to the wonderful folks who took the time to explain it.)

As a new member, but an experienced admin and customer service guy, Nick and company have performed superbly as far as facilitating discussion about this topic and not censoring it. I don't know what anyone could complain about or what else they could possibly ask for. Unfortunately, this forum was a great place to sound-off to vBulletin and have them read and respond. A few bad apples chased away what connection you had, so now it's pretty much a case of biting the hand that feeds you. I have no clue why anyone would want to leave over the subject, because you can either participate or avoid it, offering a branch to both sides.

This post was not directed at anyone in particular, and I don't mean to insinuate that anyone who is still fussing has gone beyond following option three. I just don't like to see unintelligent discussion seep into a place which has hitherto contained nothing but thoughtful and germane topics and posts.

 

Thanks for the lecture and telling us the extent of it. The problem is there are lots of people who like to talk but don't really care to understand the nature of the problem for anyone else. For most of us, switching our forum is not really a practical option. Internet Brands knows this which is why they are able to hold the shotgun to our head. So for the numerous people with 100,000+ posts and forum links in SE for years, what are we supposed to do on a practical level? You got it - bend over and take it and don't blame us for not liking it and just shut up.

Second, if you were a victim of fraud and there was no justice being done, why are you blaming the victims for desiring to continue to voice their frustations at the perpetrator until SOMEONE did something about it? Because their justifiable anger is somehow interfering with your desire to benefit from using vBulletin while turning a blind eye to a real wrong that has been done to others?

This is what makes me furious - blaming the victims and telling us that you know how wrong we are. You're clearly unaffected and now giving us a lecture on why we are just an immature group of irresponsible whiners. Let's see who is who.

Don't start quoting law - which I'll get to - and let's just start with common sense. If you've done business with a friend, colleague or anyone with whom you have a relationship for YEARS under THE SAME TERMS, you give them prior notice of any MAJOR changes to the deal. You don't ambush them with new terms with the obvious intent of extracting more money from them. If you'd had a tenant for 10 years you don't tell him 2 hours before the end of the month that your month to month lease agreement is over and he's got to pack quick and move out... and which is why THE LAW requires a MONTH PRIOR NOTICE to your tenant.

Second - Maintenance was always AN OPTION. You could do so at any time and it did NOT invalidate your ACTIVE LICENSE to run vBulletin. In fact, this custom and practice has been a part of the agreement for years, if not explicitly it is clearly implicit at the time of sale and stated as such in the forums when these licenses were sold. And you obviously haven't read your agreement or know contract law. As it stands, by Ray's offer, Internet Brands is legally obligated to sell EVERYONE with an "active license" ("expired" maintenance or not) an upgrade to vBulletin suite 4 for $130. But despite advertising this, they refused to comply with, legally, what Ray continued to advertise.

What is a mature consumer? Many of us are not children and it's infuriating to read about someone else condescending to us as if we were. Children are usually those who don't take the time to listen and just want instant gratification and block out all the bad thoughts which interfere with the nice image they'd like to have of the world. You haven't even heard the other issues, such as vBulletin's failure to make an official statement before that people who bought 3.x could not continue to use and update their license to the last released version of 3.x and are being forced to upgrade. Internet Brands destroyed its own reputation and left people to react with the only way they felt they could to hope to get some justice.

What connection? What branch? What kind of ridiculous "connection" do you think this forum really has with vBulletin? Wayne isn't here to make peace. Wayne is here for his own purposes and helps spread the business of Internet Brands and see what danger is coming down the pipeline. Want proof? Everyone admits that it seems wrong to sell version 3.8 and blogs knowing that you're about to switch after baiting with a version 4 upgrade and $130 fee. So why wasn't that remedied AT ALL? Why doesn't Wayne EVER comment on any polite questions asked to him about these issues like the one I just mentioned? This isn't a dialogue - it's a one way monologue from Wayne to everyone else sending the message that Internet Brands desires here.

I don't have the time nor desire to to do the same, but I ceratinly understand why customers feel that they have to throw record setting tantrums and threaten to burn down every supporting vBulletin forum until Internet Brands can just do the right thing. It seems that Internet Brands hasn't even cared to remedy what you even consider to be painfully bad behavior. But you're turning a blind eye to this because you think the bad boy won't mistreat you. You want civilized behavior? Quit telling victims of abuse that it was their fault and to keep it to themselves.

 

Exactly.............

 

And this is exactly why members are getting sick of this topic.

You folks love the role of the victim. Everytime someone doesn't agree with you hook, line and sinker, they're bad guys. The name-calling or the slanted backhands then begin.

Just for the record, you're making a lot of bad assumptions and frankly putting words in my mouth I clearly did not say. I have some projects and two active websites that use vBulletin. I've had some run-ins with customer service there in the past and some clearly bone-headed choices that were recently made. I was a button click away on the IPB page of ordering another license, and I inquired about switching to open source software as I agonized over the decision. In the end I chose to stick with vBulletin, as did many others that I know. Others moved on, and some still aren't sure.

So I don't buy this cowboy attitude that no one knows how you feel but you and those that agree with you. We're all admins here, and frankly the majority of us use vBulletin. We all have to make the decision, period.

ROFL. Funny response, seriously. You just proved my original point. You have a contract for vB 3.x, to which you pay a maintenance fee to upgrade. In the past, the fee was paid to upgrade or obtain support for 3.x. That active license guarantees you the ability to run what you have, but you would need to purchase the license renewal to upgrade... That contract guarantees you to that right to run the software, which you still have. That contract doesn't guarantee you to any and all future versions, I'm sure of it. Any company that makes a contract like this knows it won't hold forever when they make it out. The legal mind they use would never allow it. That's also contract law 101, and once again we have statements posted without proof.

Viewing this as a breach of trust versus a breach of contract is one thing. My point is simply that there was a very favorable license in the past where folks could only upgrade when they felt like it. That's done away with, legally.

Read the context of the darn post, please!! You left off the next few lines which explain exactly what I meant. We have some folks (and I don't know where you get the idea that this is all or you in particular) who start topics with rumors about the people at vB or about the quality of the product that they haven't seen. If you haven't done that, it doesn't apply to you then, does it?

The branch was the offering to either side of those here at AA - those who don't care to see the threads and those who want to participate in them. Context, context, and context.

Oh, and by the way, folks convert large boards all of the time. I've done it, as have customers. Yes it can be a load of work, yes it will cause trouble, and yes it does suck for lack of a better word. However, things in life sometimes change and it takes a little hard work. Life is not always fair, and complaining on a forum is not going to change IB's tone. Believe it or not, I understand the frustration. I understand, too, that if IB is going to make these decisions (even if they recant on them), it's still the same company.

You guys have a right to complain, but I am knocking the ones out there that have gone beyond intelligent complaints. Some have, I'd even say most have, because they're after IB at every turn for things that aren't even related to them.

 

You dont know much about contracts for software or End User License Agreements do you? Like a car, once that contract is signed, its good UNTIL you sign another contract... This more applies to leasing a car, then purchasing one. I bought a VB license, not a lease license.

If you rent a house, your an idiot to sign yet another lease when you can go month to month when your lease is over. It gives YOU the power and leave on your own terms, when you want, so i dont know where this analogy has any place in this discussion.

In regards to the VB software licensing, no one made mention the EULA would change, let alone, placing a gun to your head to force you to upgrade sight unscene and for an absurd increased amount of a license fee. The contract i signed was for 3.x license, not 4.0, so i and many others dont have to follow their new rules with our current installation.

Take windows for example. they sure as hell dont force me to buy a new OS and charge me yearly for security updates for the previous one, now do they? Its FREE. So, is the honeymoon over or did it never happen is WHAT you should be asking yourself, instead of calling your fellow admins idiots.

Lets all praise IB now... The VB staff did not get chased away. They chose to hide under a rock, knowing full well what was coming. The proof is there with screen shots from the post containing this info.

You're the sheep.. Im the Wolf...

 

Well said. The staff from vb have every right to come around and discuss what they would like too. They too need to understand that some of us aren't happy and they need to learn to deal with that. They can't just hit the ban key here and pretend like we don't exist.

 

Okay, whatever you say, I don't know what I'm talking about.

(Just like when they raised the original licensing costs.)

vBulletin Licensing Changes

Guess that was illegal, eh?

If it's so illegal, file a lawsuit! Surely a class-action is possible?

 

If you choose to renew a license, then your EULA changes... However, forcing people to buy a license for 4.0 when they use 3.0 to get their security updates, is not only wrong, its breaching the contract you signed.

If you get enough pissed off admins to go after IB in CA through a class action, you bet IB will lose this one hands down... They feel as of now, no one has the balls to do it... Many admins dont want to run the risk of being banned. If they blackball an admins site based off a legal proceeding, IB will really be up a creek without a paddle.

 

I'm restraining myself from telling you to go do something with yourself that begins with a familiar letter. "We" love the role of the victim? WHAT do you know about "us?" For the last 8 years I was a big supporter of vBulletin and own several licenses as a result. All of this changed this past October after getting some bizarre email and then watching Ray & Co. gloat in public several times about "record setting sales numbers" that prove that everyone loves Internet Brands.

They screwed me and others and yes, they ARE the bad guys and that does NOT change because you don't feel you got screwed. THIS is what is infuriating to everyone else. They were disingenuous and dishonest to a significant group of customers - so significant that it's causing a prolonged disturance. There are black and white fabrications in their own press releases. If you're in denial, quit telling us that we just love to play the victim. UNTIL THE MONEY CHANGES HANDS THERE IS A REASON TO BE DISSATSIFED SO ACCEPT IT.

Others DO understand. You're just the 1 in 5 who doesn't get it. You made your decision and decided that whatever hassle you had wasn't worth arguing about so nobody else should. In fact, you've gone so far in your last post to tell us that you feel that nobody but the new purchasers were wronged. READ YOUR POST.

I love it when high and mighty admins tell long time attorneys what the law is and that I just proved you are right. All you've done is continue to ramble over everyone else's words, not listening or caring what we say while your inflated opinion should somehow be the law of the land.

Let me now educate you and think about this before you post again making a fool of yourself and infuriating numerous other members here:

1) The license question has NOTHING to do with contract law and everything to do with licensing. Go look it up in Black's Law Dictionary. Everyone agrees an offer was made, there was an acceptance and consideration exchanged.

2) Do you know what an "active license" even means? By it's own terms it means a license that allows you to do something. If you DON'T have an active license you CANNOT do something such as running ANY vBulletin forum.

3) READ YOUR LICENSE. Did you understand. If you didn't READ YOUR BLOODY LICENSE. I know you didn't. Because if you DID you'd read that your license, if OWNED, is NON-EXPIRING.

It's clear you should in no way be playing the lawyer, either here or on TV. I question from even what you wrote above about transitioning software whether you should even be playing the role of admin yet. Let's assume there isn't a EULA or the EULA doesn't address the issue. Putting it in the simplest terms you might understand, if there is a custom and practice that was part of an agreement that was not written into the agreement, there may well be reasons why it IS part of the contract.

The law tries to follow and provide expectations for the way people do business. Company A sells apples every day for $1 with the well publicized policy and guaratee to bring back the apple the next day for a refund if the customer finds a worm. If Company B buys the seller at midnight, he can't turn away the customer in the morning who brings back his apple for a refund, claiming the guarantee doesn't appear in the written words of the contract. The refund / guarantee was a part of the agreement at time of sale and part of the selling point made by Company A to the customer. It makes perfect logical and legal sense. The burden the customer has is to prove that this guarantee and policy existed. Do you need me to connect the dots as it applies to Jelsoft and vBulletin 3? This isn't such a simple issue.

I've snipped the rest. You wrote:

For those of you who got caught with your pants down, post-renewal, that's your own fault.

All you have been doing here is babbling on even more with double talk about how you didn't say what you did, everything is taken out of context, yadda yadda yadda. The difference between what you are trying to do and what Internet Brands does is that they do it MUCH better than you do.

You've insulted many intelligent people by refusing to acknowledge a very large and widespread wrong done to vBulletin customers. Your lecture on the law is absurd. Anyone can convert data but it doesn't mean that the business of the forum can be saved. Plus, it is a HUGE risk - or did you guarantee your customers that converting from forum x to forum y they'd recover all the backlinks they had? Whatever. You've now been caught with your pants down and not much to show. Now start having some respect for some of the wolves and wake up and realize you're a sheep (great line Haltech.)

 

I'm walking away from this, I refuse stoop any lower. This is really insane.

 

You can't stoop lower since you're the one looking upwards. You make accusations and then, when you don't have answers, you claim the discussion is beneath you.

A child doesn't admit when he is wrong. A child covers his ears, doesn't want to listen and pretends that the ruckus he caused is just other people stooping low. So stop telling us what is childish and engage in a mature, adult discussion if you can.

 

Lets try to leave the personal barbs out of this please.

 

He accused us of being "childish" so I responded, nothing "personal" intended about it. No need to make another issue out of this. It's just another vBulletin sympathizer who lights a flame, causes a fire and then can't handle the truth so he walks away with fingers in his ears. As I said, the easiest way to calm things down is for everyone to understand that people got hurt and hopefully avoid making any accusations or starting threads that will fan the flames like "let's start positive things to say" or something like that. Keeping it technical should be fine and understanding the uneasy tension that exists and giving some breathing room.

 

Well it looks like the ships captain is in las vegas this morning to give a speech about internet brands and his acquisition of jelsoft. He has been talking on twitter at #pubcon and people at the conference are going to ask about the BBB complaints that are currently on record.

If you have something you want someone to ask that will be at the conference, just go to twitter and post in the #pubcon section. Be nice though........

 

This is not a physics class, every action does not require an opposite reaction. There is a time to move on...

Now IS that time...

 

This is what I was reading for. I appreciate the eloquence of the technical side of things for this matter.

This is the value here at AA on this.

 

With all due respect here, where did I say everyone is childish? The point is I did not. I'm calling those who have to post in every single vBulletin thread and start Twitter accounts just to talk bad about every aspect of IB/vB. Those are the childish ones. If you don't do that, it doesn't apply to you.

If it was somehow mistakenly taken that I'm calling you childish, that was not my intention. I don't believe everyone who is upset is a child. I don't know why my original generic post was taken as such a commentary on all or you individually, as it was not meant to be.

Since we are talking about logic here, my post was meant to be logical. There are those three clear avenues of logic that we can take. Notice that I never said one was better than the other, and when I referred to three I chose to talk about those that take it overboard. We each have to make our own choice there.

As far as mature discussion, I'll be happy to engage in it without the name calling. Note again that I never once addressed my post to anyone in particular.

I swear, some of you folks are looking for a fight when there isn't one, and people like me are just trying to get down to that logic that you're talking about. If things with vBulletin go south, I'll be looking to move on. However, I want to quantitatively know it's going south.

It's just like the license issue. I don't claim to be a lawyer here, but I do deal with usage agreements and other legal agreements. I keep seeing statements about the license, but I would appreciate it if someone could produce the lifetime license and show me why they believe it to be illegal. If you have legal experience, share it. I just need to see more than assurance that you know, with all due respect. It's just like the topic about code quality - it comes up all over the place and there are always those folks who talk about "bad code" without ever showing why it's bad. Legal speak is the same way for me, I'm an English major so I can typically read through most documents and at least get a gist. Show me, I'll believe you, but show me!

 

Thank you, I was trying to find more info on how things were going at pubcon.

 

Apology accepted. But you need to say "can someone help me understand" instead of coming to a conclusion that we all must be wrong until someone can explain the legalities to you.

First - have you EVER read the license that comes in the ZIP file you decompressed and then most of whose files you installed onto a server? JUST READ IT. If you haven't read it you really can't talk about it without getting everyone here mad. After doing so, come back here with any questions. An "owned" license doesn't expire after a year like a "lease" license does. It's all there.

Second - let's use some common sense. A license gives someone the right to do something. If you buy vBulletin and never pay the maintenance subscription, we all know that you can still run vBulletin forums on the license you own. It just might mean you don't have access to and the ability to run a later upgrade/release of vBulletin's forums... right?

 

Not really an apology on my part, but if you feel better with it that way then whatever. I'm not here to insult folks.

Actually, yes. I've read both because I've owned both leased and owned. I tend to read the fine print. I'm also familiar with the concepts of owned and leased, I work in the hosting industry.

And there ya go again, I knew it was too good to be true. Quit insulting people who are trying very hard to remain polite and reason with you. For the sake of others who read this thread, I'll ignore it.

A license gives you the base right to use the product, yes. Renewals are made available to you indeed, but just as before, those renewals are guaranteed conditionally. I only now have access to the revised 4.0 license, so I'd really appreciate it if someone could produce the original as I'm recalling everything from memory. Anyways... Hence the reason prices could be raised as they were a year ago. If you desire to continue to run vB 3.8.x, you may do so.

This was a very friendly licensing system in the past, which clearly favored the customer. One didn't have to pay the yearly renewal, and you could skip allowing the support/upgrades to expire but still run the software. Then just renew as needed; a nice caveat but not inherently guaranteed in the license just like the price was not guaranteed. And such is the case here, you don't have to upgrade to vB 4.0, you can continue to run vB 3.8.x but knowing that support will drop like it does with any software.

In this case you're paying $130 (roughly 2 years of license renewals for support/upgrades) up front whereas before it was spread over two years. I'm just not seeing a con-job here. It's pretty much the same license, the only tradeoff is that you have to pay for two years upfront where you didn't before if you kept active. If you didn't...well it's the old have your cake and eat it too argument. Still don't see the illegal part, if someone could point that out using the actual license, please do so.