vBulletin Nightmare

Any comparison ?

 

Any comparison ?

 

Hello,
I will never spend a cent on vBulletin.
I did it once and never again.
Now I use open source softwares and donate to the developers.
Regards.

 

Hello,
I will never spend a cent on vBulletin.
I did it once and never again.
Now I use open source softwares and donate to the developers.
Regards.

 

Hmm....another Mark.

Thought I'd best point out it's not me!

 

Hmm....another Mark.

Thought I'd best point out it's not me!

 

@Shelley - actually it's "the love of money is the root of all evil."

 

@Shelley - actually it's "the love of money is the root of all evil."

 

as one of those newly joined you've mentioned, somehow i felt that your message is aimed directly at me. frankly, i fail to see how anybody can have no problems with vB for what they're doing and how they're doing it. i don't want to label anyone, but i think we've been cheated. we all. some accept this with enthusiasm, some with resentment and some will just shrug. never mind emotions, the facts are: we're forced to accept the new licensing scheme, we're forced to pay more money than we've signed for, we've not been warned of upcoming changes in a timely manner and we've not been granted any grace period whatsoever. "effective today" without warning doesn't strike me as very smooth transition. now, you may have problems with vB over that or you may have not, it's your call, but i see no point in pretending that the problem doesn't exist in the first place.

you know, from the outside it looks as beginning of a major witch-hunt. i wonder why nobody has yet compared IB with Nazi and made one of those youtube videos featuring Hitler raving at his merry men, it seems like popular treat these days.

what, are you not happy with this forum gaining in popularity? if so, it's already late, this board's got the reputation of Important Forum vB Executives Can Find Time Answering On. people will drive here in shoals just to be able to touch this holy place. have you thought of selling tickets?

well yes, have you ever heard of some million lemmings and that they can't be wrong? our strength is in numbers, we believe that if we voice it loud enough, the walls of Jericho will fall, or something to that effect. or we'll sore our throats raw, belike.

why do you think so? the discussion may yet prove to yield some results. IB are not monsters, they're just people like you and me. they may change their mind and provide some kind of an acceptable service plan for existing 3.8 software, i don't see why not. i, for one, do not need vb4 at this time. i don't believe it is stable enough and i'm not ready to migrate my forum all over again anyway so i'll stick with 3.8 for some time yet. however, i don't want to be on my own either and i'm ready to pay them for support - not $40 per year of course, since this price included (or should, at least) the promise for upgrades, but something like $20 i'd gladly pay. or even $30, but that wouldn't be fair in my opinion. anyway, i see this as win-win situation for both us and them and frankly i can't understand why it wasn't suggested in the first place.
so i think IB can mend it with the customers yet. it doesn't help to call them names and assume they're idiots, though.

well, don't you think you're overdramatizing it all? i do.

 

as one of those newly joined you've mentioned, somehow i felt that your message is aimed directly at me. frankly, i fail to see how anybody can have no problems with vB for what they're doing and how they're doing it. i don't want to label anyone, but i think we've been cheated. we all. some accept this with enthusiasm, some with resentment and some will just shrug. never mind emotions, the facts are: we're forced to accept the new licensing scheme, we're forced to pay more money than we've signed for, we've not been warned of upcoming changes in a timely manner and we've not been granted any grace period whatsoever. "effective today" without warning doesn't strike me as very smooth transition. now, you may have problems with vB over that or you may have not, it's your call, but i see no point in pretending that the problem doesn't exist in the first place.

you know, from the outside it looks as beginning of a major witch-hunt. i wonder why nobody has yet compared IB with Nazi and made one of those youtube videos featuring Hitler raving at his merry men, it seems like popular treat these days.

what, are you not happy with this forum gaining in popularity? if so, it's already late, this board's got the reputation of Important Forum vB Executives Can Find Time Answering On. people will drive here in shoals just to be able to touch this holy place. have you thought of selling tickets?

well yes, have you ever heard of some million lemmings and that they can't be wrong? our strength is in numbers, we believe that if we voice it loud enough, the walls of Jericho will fall, or something to that effect. or we'll sore our throats raw, belike.

why do you think so? the discussion may yet prove to yield some results. IB are not monsters, they're just people like you and me. they may change their mind and provide some kind of an acceptable service plan for existing 3.8 software, i don't see why not. i, for one, do not need vb4 at this time. i don't believe it is stable enough and i'm not ready to migrate my forum all over again anyway so i'll stick with 3.8 for some time yet. however, i don't want to be on my own either and i'm ready to pay them for support - not $40 per year of course, since this price included (or should, at least) the promise for upgrades, but something like $20 i'd gladly pay. or even $30, but that wouldn't be fair in my opinion. anyway, i see this as win-win situation for both us and them and frankly i can't understand why it wasn't suggested in the first place.
so i think IB can mend it with the customers yet. it doesn't help to call them names and assume they're idiots, though.

well, don't you think you're overdramatizing it all? i do.

 

You feel like you have been cheated, others don't, as I previously said MANY times, I think my $195 are well spent. We're not pretending the problem doesn't exist, but it's like an itchy scratch, if you keep scratching it, it will get worse, it's better to not scratch. Besides, some of us just use the software, go to .org if we need to and don't go to the site unless there is an update.

Sheesh, people only respond to one thread and now AA is holy? [****][****][****][****]ing hell if it was that easy I would have made my forums holy already.

Ray Morgan posted on one thread, and Wayne Luke post here regularly, what the hell is so holy about that?

Yes, but they forgot to 'listen to god' again and they got ran out by the Midianites, Gideon came to the rescue but they AGAIN got ran out by the Philistines. When people forget what they're fighting for and begin 'just' to bash, the truth is lost and you may think your truth is the only truth.

Yet they get treated like animals.

I am not happy with how vB/IB handled this, no one is, and this has been stressed many times. But I'm one of those people who are willing to wait and watch.

If you compare it to real life, no one tells you about offers you see on the TV, they just appear.

In Puerto Rico we have commercials that say "TODAY ONLY! Come get you meat for 2.99, Panadol pills, for 0.99, Suiza Fruit Juice $3.99!". Also, when you go to the store, let's say yesterday the price of ketchup was at $0.99... today it might change to $2.99, without telling you. Gas prices! Today they could be (in PR) $0.65 per gallon and tomorrow $0.59 per gallon.

It was already overdramatized on this thread and the millions(exaggeration of course, people here will take it as if I was serious) of vB threads made, she posted once and it was overdramatized? I'd imagine the people who post the same thing 2-4 times like a broken disk.

 

You feel like you have been cheated, others don't, as I previously said MANY times, I think my $195 are well spent. We're not pretending the problem doesn't exist, but it's like an itchy scratch, if you keep scratching it, it will get worse, it's better to not scratch. Besides, some of us just use the software, go to .org if we need to and don't go to the site unless there is an update.

Sheesh, people only respond to one thread and now AA is holy? [****][****][****][****]ing hell if it was that easy I would have made my forums holy already.

Ray Morgan posted on one thread, and Wayne Luke post here regularly, what the hell is so holy about that?

Yes, but they forgot to 'listen to god' again and they got ran out by the Midianites, Gideon came to the rescue but they AGAIN got ran out by the Philistines. When people forget what they're fighting for and begin 'just' to bash, the truth is lost and you may think your truth is the only truth.

Yet they get treated like animals.

I am not happy with how vB/IB handled this, no one is, and this has been stressed many times. But I'm one of those people who are willing to wait and watch.

If you compare it to real life, no one tells you about offers you see on the TV, they just appear.

In Puerto Rico we have commercials that say "TODAY ONLY! Come get you meat for 2.99, Panadol pills, for 0.99, Suiza Fruit Juice $3.99!". Also, when you go to the store, let's say yesterday the price of ketchup was at $0.99... today it might change to $2.99, without telling you. Gas prices! Today they could be (in PR) $0.65 per gallon and tomorrow $0.59 per gallon.

It was already overdramatized on this thread and the millions(exaggeration of course, people here will take it as if I was serious) of vB threads made, she posted once and it was overdramatized? I'd imagine the people who post the same thing 2-4 times like a broken disk.

 

Now that's rich. I'm overdramatizing now.

I've had my say. I refuse to be sucked into yet another personal back-and-forth.

IB is a business. They have the right to do what they will with their prices and policies. Some of what they've done on vB.com is wrong, and they should not be allowed to continue that.

How they advertise, what they charge, when they make their announcements, and how they change their policies is completely up to them. You don't see retailers announcing their Black Friday deals weeks in advance, do you? Why would anyone shop for those items between the announcement of a future sale and the actual sale date?

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Switch to IPB, phpBB, MyBB, SMF, Whatever. There are import scripts.

I upgraded to Adobe CS3 and within a few months CS4 was released. Did I get CS4 for free because it had been so recent that I upgraded? No. I was offered a discount from their full upgrade price. You didn't see a huge uproar about that.

Oh...I haven't upgraded to CS4 yet, but I'd sure like to.

Consider it a gift that vB supports forums that are running software that is three point versions back. Not all companies offer that. People can continue to use 3.8 until either their license expires (as usual), or until 4.2 if they paid into their new licensing structure.

Actually, you're free to use it for the rest of your life if you want. Chances are you'll eventually be hacked, but that's the price you pay. I'm using the general you, not aimed at anyone in particular.

 

Now that's rich. I'm overdramatizing now.

I've had my say. I refuse to be sucked into yet another personal back-and-forth.

IB is a business. They have the right to do what they will with their prices and policies. Some of what they've done on vB.com is wrong, and they should not be allowed to continue that.

How they advertise, what they charge, when they make their announcements, and how they change their policies is completely up to them. You don't see retailers announcing their Black Friday deals weeks in advance, do you? Why would anyone shop for those items between the announcement of a future sale and the actual sale date?

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Switch to IPB, phpBB, MyBB, SMF, Whatever. There are import scripts.

I upgraded to Adobe CS3 and within a few months CS4 was released. Did I get CS4 for free because it had been so recent that I upgraded? No. I was offered a discount from their full upgrade price. You didn't see a huge uproar about that.

Oh...I haven't upgraded to CS4 yet, but I'd sure like to.

Consider it a gift that vB supports forums that are running software that is three point versions back. Not all companies offer that. People can continue to use 3.8 until either their license expires (as usual), or until 4.2 if they paid into their new licensing structure.

Actually, you're free to use it for the rest of your life if you want. Chances are you'll eventually be hacked, but that's the price you pay. I'm using the general you, not aimed at anyone in particular.

 

my feelings have nothing to do with it, really, nor yours. as i said, the fact is that vB broke their word, did it without warning and are forcing existing customers to upgrade to vb4 regardless of whether they need it or not, under the pain of being stripped of support. that's called cheating in my book, and bad business practice, and it has nothing to do with the actual product, which may be the God's next great gift to us, for all that we know, or it may not. we've not even seen a live demo yet, and i don't know how much their own forum is new 4.0, it might be 3.8 skinned anew just as well.
frankly, i do feel screwed but that's not fatal, it'll pass. life's a bitch sometimes, you know, so it's not the first time. i'll live.

i grant that scratching it with dirty fingers won't help and may in fact make things worse but it's not right to ignore it either. apply some ointment, kiss it and it'll be all right, but don't just wait until it catches infection and you'll need a powerful antibiotic to get rid of it.

you know, that's exactly what i did before i got that "notice of revocation of independence". i was a bit shocked to see these crazy news coming right out of the blue and decided to see what's going on. turned out it's not only crazy but heaps of fun as well.

hey, aren't you too serious? i'm sorry, english is not my native so maybe it wasn't phrased all too clear but it was a joke, really.

exactly what i said in my first message, about that blog article. it seems like people are fighting just for the sake of it, inventing excuses for both sides in pure denial. it's fascinating to watch, though.

plus one. i think we're talking about the same things, using different words. i don't think vb4 is a failure as a product, i couldn't form any opinion of it just yet, but how vB/IB handled it was and definitely is a failure. it'd be grand if they learned on it and made amends, i'd applaud them most heartily. and with my wallet, too. i'm not inclined to do it just yet, but this may change.
and you know, they could even make it look real cool, if they'd pretend they wanted to do exactly this all the way. like, wait till this tidal wave of shit reaches its top and then whoaa, make this grand entrance and announce that everybody's getting free upgrade, free support and a box of sweets now and forever, amen! in an instant, black pr turns to pure white pr, they start writing articles like 'IB: How To Make Amends And Turn Out Human After All', stocks skyrocket so that Google writhes in envy, and everybody's in awe at what a Great Mastermind could devise such a Great Masterplan. and happily ever after. i wonder if this is really so.

somehow i don't think this is a correct comparison. on the tv they show ads for potential customers and why, that's the sacred game everybody's after. all's fair in love and sales, you know. but here we have existing contractual relationship with a company and unless i'm grossly mistaken, springing such vast changes on your customers unannounced is generally considered not merely bad business practice but an insult outright. and speaking about business practices, well, not intending to insult anyone but if an employee of a company has to fight its bosses for its customers, i'd think there's something plainly wrong with the company.

 

my feelings have nothing to do with it, really, nor yours. as i said, the fact is that vB broke their word, did it without warning and are forcing existing customers to upgrade to vb4 regardless of whether they need it or not, under the pain of being stripped of support. that's called cheating in my book, and bad business practice, and it has nothing to do with the actual product, which may be the God's next great gift to us, for all that we know, or it may not. we've not even seen a live demo yet, and i don't know how much their own forum is new 4.0, it might be 3.8 skinned anew just as well.
frankly, i do feel screwed but that's not fatal, it'll pass. life's a bitch sometimes, you know, so it's not the first time. i'll live.

i grant that scratching it with dirty fingers won't help and may in fact make things worse but it's not right to ignore it either. apply some ointment, kiss it and it'll be all right, but don't just wait until it catches infection and you'll need a powerful antibiotic to get rid of it.

you know, that's exactly what i did before i got that "notice of revocation of independence". i was a bit shocked to see these crazy news coming right out of the blue and decided to see what's going on. turned out it's not only crazy but heaps of fun as well.

hey, aren't you too serious? i'm sorry, english is not my native so maybe it wasn't phrased all too clear but it was a joke, really.

exactly what i said in my first message, about that blog article. it seems like people are fighting just for the sake of it, inventing excuses for both sides in pure denial. it's fascinating to watch, though.

plus one. i think we're talking about the same things, using different words. i don't think vb4 is a failure as a product, i couldn't form any opinion of it just yet, but how vB/IB handled it was and definitely is a failure. it'd be grand if they learned on it and made amends, i'd applaud them most heartily. and with my wallet, too. i'm not inclined to do it just yet, but this may change.
and you know, they could even make it look real cool, if they'd pretend they wanted to do exactly this all the way. like, wait till this tidal wave of shit reaches its top and then whoaa, make this grand entrance and announce that everybody's getting free upgrade, free support and a box of sweets now and forever, amen! in an instant, black pr turns to pure white pr, they start writing articles like 'IB: How To Make Amends And Turn Out Human After All', stocks skyrocket so that Google writhes in envy, and everybody's in awe at what a Great Mastermind could devise such a Great Masterplan. and happily ever after. i wonder if this is really so.

somehow i don't think this is a correct comparison. on the tv they show ads for potential customers and why, that's the sacred game everybody's after. all's fair in love and sales, you know. but here we have existing contractual relationship with a company and unless i'm grossly mistaken, springing such vast changes on your customers unannounced is generally considered not merely bad business practice but an insult outright. and speaking about business practices, well, not intending to insult anyone but if an employee of a company has to fight its bosses for its customers, i'd think there's something plainly wrong with the company.

 

sorry, you expressed your opinion publicly and i got such impression. it was not intended as an insult or personal attack.

i said it already in the previous message: i see a difference between advertising for potential customers and keeping existing customers informed. it's not only words, we paid them money and we're in contractual relationship with Jelsoft. or vB, whatever.

sorry, but you're wrong. people at IB, they're not idiots and of course they know that the one real competitor to vB is IPB. i don't really think any open source bulletin board software can beat vb, i moved to vb from phpbb after two years of constant maintenance headache and i'm never going back. so yes, they know all that perfectly and they know that a lot of people will cough up rather than lose it all. if you're offered a choice between bad and worse, that is called forcing and nothing else. word juggling won't help it.

sorry, i'm not adobe customer and i don't know their policy: are release dates announced? did you know that the new version is coming out and when? when you purchased it, did you purchase a software license or was the support for it included in price? were you told that you have your support only till the end of the year and after that you have to pay all over again? somehow, i just fail to see how your example resembles our situation here.

well, i don't get it. are you trying to say that we should be grateful for a great gift of support for our own money?

yes, i know i'm free to do just that. i'm also free to pay someone for keeping the existing version up to date with security patches, and i'd be glad if this would be the same people who developed the software. but i'm also free to decide not to pay this outrageous priсe they want me to pay. and also i'm free to express my opinion publicly for these people to see and maybe think it over. consider it some business negotiations.

 

sorry, you expressed your opinion publicly and i got such impression. it was not intended as an insult or personal attack.

i said it already in the previous message: i see a difference between advertising for potential customers and keeping existing customers informed. it's not only words, we paid them money and we're in contractual relationship with Jelsoft. or vB, whatever.

sorry, but you're wrong. people at IB, they're not idiots and of course they know that the one real competitor to vB is IPB. i don't really think any open source bulletin board software can beat vb, i moved to vb from phpbb after two years of constant maintenance headache and i'm never going back. so yes, they know all that perfectly and they know that a lot of people will cough up rather than lose it all. if you're offered a choice between bad and worse, that is called forcing and nothing else. word juggling won't help it.

sorry, i'm not adobe customer and i don't know their policy: are release dates announced? did you know that the new version is coming out and when? when you purchased it, did you purchase a software license or was the support for it included in price? were you told that you have your support only till the end of the year and after that you have to pay all over again? somehow, i just fail to see how your example resembles our situation here.

well, i don't get it. are you trying to say that we should be grateful for a great gift of support for our own money?

yes, i know i'm free to do just that. i'm also free to pay someone for keeping the existing version up to date with security patches, and i'd be glad if this would be the same people who developed the software. but i'm also free to decide not to pay this outrageous priсe they want me to pay. and also i'm free to express my opinion publicly for these people to see and maybe think it over. consider it some business negotiations.

 

Release dates for adobe products are not really announced, I remember I had CS3 and all of the sudden a new CS4 comes out, rumors of CS5 in the making and ETA. You have Photoshop CS4 and Photoshop CS4 Extended, both the same thing, just that extended is a bit more pricier, and has a bit more features. I've NEVER used the support FORUM, but like in vB, it's free. Like on vB forums, the support for the CS4, CS3, CS3, CS, 8, 7, 6, Elements, etc. is free and does not have a limitation. And I have CS4.

OH and MyBB might be a little behind, but not that behind, MyBB can be put side by side with vB.

 

Release dates for adobe products are not really announced, I remember I had CS3 and all of the sudden a new CS4 comes out, rumors of CS5 in the making and ETA. You have Photoshop CS4 and Photoshop CS4 Extended, both the same thing, just that extended is a bit more pricier, and has a bit more features. I've NEVER used the support FORUM, but like in vB, it's free. Like on vB forums, the support for the CS4, CS3, CS3, CS, 8, 7, 6, Elements, etc. is free and does not have a limitation. And I have CS4.

OH and MyBB might be a little behind, but not that behind, MyBB can be put side by side with vB.

 

I know some customers got a raw deal out of the license changes, but I do now understand why they are doing ti the way they are.

If what they say is correct then it should lead to a better product than we've had before, going forward.

We all know how long it was taking to develop fairly minor addons like Blog and PT in the past.....the resources were not there. The new licensing scheme is actually fairly standard in the software industry, it's the transistion that could have been handled better.

 

I know some customers got a raw deal out of the license changes, but I do now understand why they are doing ti the way they are.

If what they say is correct then it should lead to a better product than we've had before, going forward.

We all know how long it was taking to develop fairly minor addons like Blog and PT in the past.....the resources were not there. The new licensing scheme is actually fairly standard in the software industry, it's the transistion that could have been handled better.

 

well, what can i say? you and Chani may have a point about adobe software but i can't really say if it's valid or not. but as i said, i fail to see a clear coherence between these cases.

thanks for the tip, i'm already uploading it to my test site. i don't really think i'm ready to move my forum again, it took me a huge lot of time and effort to jump off phpbb and on vbulletin and i shudder at the thought of doing all this again. but it won't hurt to take a look at something else, though, it's always interesting to see what else is there.

 

well, what can i say? you and Chani may have a point about adobe software but i can't really say if it's valid or not. but as i said, i fail to see a clear coherence between these cases.

thanks for the tip, i'm already uploading it to my test site. i don't really think i'm ready to move my forum again, it took me a huge lot of time and effort to jump off phpbb and on vbulletin and i shudder at the thought of doing all this again. but it won't hurt to take a look at something else, though, it's always interesting to see what else is there.

 

Whether or not people are getting tired of listening to people and their concerns about the fiasco it's well within their rights to voice their constructive criticisms/concerns etc.

It's simple, your tired of listening, there's an ignore button that comes with the vbulletin script.

People will speak out, And whether they have one post and registered solely to voice their concerns is within their rights to add to the many evolving threads.

And again, just an observation, bashing shouldn't be mistaken for valid constructive criticism. Last time i checked the majority of negative posts towards the vbulletin company is made by respected people that where loyal untill this present day.

Again. Vbulletin >> feature >> Ignore.

 

Whether or not people are getting tired of listening to people and their concerns about the fiasco it's well within their rights to voice their constructive criticisms/concerns etc.

It's simple, your tired of listening, there's an ignore button that comes with the vbulletin script.

People will speak out, And whether they have one post and registered solely to voice their concerns is within their rights to add to the many evolving threads.

And again, just an observation, bashing shouldn't be mistaken for valid constructive criticism. Last time i checked the majority of negative posts towards the vbulletin company is made by respected people that where loyal untill this present day.

Again. Vbulletin >> feature >> Ignore.

 

That's the point. After being lied to, I can't just take their word for it anymore.

Show me one forum software that has this kind of licensing policy.
But even if there were others. That is not the real problem. The real problem is that customers were mislead and they were selling upgrades and addons up untill the very last day. Telling leased license holders to convert to owned ones, etc.
It's very hard for me to trust any company that does that sort of thing.

 

That's the point. After being lied to, I can't just take their word for it anymore.

Show me one forum software that has this kind of licensing policy.
But even if there were others. That is not the real problem. The real problem is that customers were mislead and they were selling upgrades and addons up untill the very last day. Telling leased license holders to convert to owned ones, etc.
It's very hard for me to trust any company that does that sort of thing.

 

No offense, but your view point over the last few weeks, has gone from one extreme to now the other. At first, you were one of the most vocal critics on the official forums, as well as elsewhere and now it seems like you've become the biggest vBulletin 4.0, Internet Brands cheerleader.

At the end of the day, it goes without saying that you're entitled to do and think what you like, as are all of us, but I don't think your current position of "I spoke to Ray and now everything is wonderful", is any more realistic than your old point of view was, where you thought that everything was a complete disaster. The truth actually lies somewhere in between those two points of view.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like when you got banned from the official support forums and then also lost access to software updates etc., and to .org, that you kinda sat there going, oh S**T what am I going to do now? And that appears to have put you into a vulnerable position which has allowed you to be manipulated by Internet Brands management.

I dunno, maybe I've got it all wrong.

Whatever the case, the fact is, that vBulletin had no right and no justfication to remove your access, or anyone else's access, to vital software updates on vBulletin or on .org. I believe they did it in part to create a chill effect with some users and from that perspective, what they did seemed to have worked on some.

But what they did was also legally wrong, as well as contractually wrong, and I believe vBulletin knows it. That's why that now that the truth is coming out, on here, on various blogs and in the media - that vBulletin are now in semi-panic mode, back-tracking and getting caught up in a web of inconsistencies and excuses as they try their damnedest to cover up their mistakes.

Let's face it, it doesn't take a genius to figure out, that when the Internet Brands legal department, starts answering the questions and giving the explanations, that they are walking a very thin legal tight-rope and that they have probably already exposed themselves to legal trouble.

The biggest problem that I see with how Internet Brands is running vBulletin, is that they have adopted a business philosophy of "the ends justify the means". And many customers have figured that out now and so the trust that existed before is now gone. If Internet Brands keeps going down this same road, I think they're going to find out in very short order, that the "ends" might just be a lot different then they ever imagined.

If Internet Brands were smart, they would step up and fix this mess and make things right with their customers on their own, before some lawyer rounds up all the blog owners and other injured parties and makes them do it by filing a suit against them. :2cents:

 

No offense, but your view point over the last few weeks, has gone from one extreme to now the other. At first, you were one of the most vocal critics on the official forums, as well as elsewhere and now it seems like you've become the biggest vBulletin 4.0, Internet Brands cheerleader.

At the end of the day, it goes without saying that you're entitled to do and think what you like, as are all of us, but I don't think your current position of "I spoke to Ray and now everything is wonderful", is any more realistic than your old point of view was, where you thought that everything was a complete disaster. The truth actually lies somewhere in between those two points of view.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like when you got banned from the official support forums and then also lost access to software updates etc., and to .org, that you kinda sat there going, oh S**T what am I going to do now? And that appears to have put you into a vulnerable position which has allowed you to be manipulated by Internet Brands management.

I dunno, maybe I've got it all wrong.

Whatever the case, the fact is, that vBulletin had no right and no justfication to remove your access, or anyone else's access, to vital software updates on vBulletin or on .org. I believe they did it in part to create a chill effect with some users and from that perspective, what they did seemed to have worked on some.

But what they did was also legally wrong, as well as contractually wrong, and I believe vBulletin knows it. That's why that now that the truth is coming out, on here, on various blogs and in the media - that vBulletin are now in semi-panic mode, back-tracking and getting caught up in a web of inconsistencies and excuses as they try their damnedest to cover up their mistakes.

Let's face it, it doesn't take a genius to figure out, that when the Internet Brands legal department, starts answering the questions and giving the explanations, that they are walking a very thin legal tight-rope and that they have probably already exposed themselves to legal trouble.

The biggest problem that I see with how Internet Brands is running vBulletin, is that they have adopted a business philosophy of "the ends justify the means". And many customers have figured that out now and so the trust that existed before is now gone. If Internet Brands keeps going down this same road, I think they're going to find out in very short order, that the "ends" might just be a lot different then they ever imagined.

If Internet Brands were smart, they would step up and fix this mess and make things right with their customers on their own, before some lawyer rounds up all the blog owners and other injured parties and makes them do it by filing a suit against them. :2cents:

 

I just renewed (Sept '09) 2 different licenses w/blogs so I spent the money to renew. So yes I didn't like to 'short notice' that was presented. Which is the only gripe I really have. If you look at, and because I did at one time have a site that ran the products. CMS $99, Forum $160, and Blog $50. What a good deal here, and they all run from the same engine. Even IP charges $249 for 3 products forum, blog, and gallery. So yes I'm not going to cut my nose to spite my face. I'll wait and watch and if the product doesn't meet the value I'll find one that does.

 

I just renewed (Sept '09) 2 different licenses w/blogs so I spent the money to renew. So yes I didn't like to 'short notice' that was presented. Which is the only gripe I really have. If you look at, and because I did at one time have a site that ran the products. CMS $99, Forum $160, and Blog $50. What a good deal here, and they all run from the same engine. Even IP charges $249 for 3 products forum, blog, and gallery. So yes I'm not going to cut my nose to spite my face. I'll wait and watch and if the product doesn't meet the value I'll find one that does.

 

I don't think the price is problem. It's the misleading of customers that is the problem. At least it is for me.
I spent $265 for nothing because of false advice given by Ray Morgan.

 

I don't think the price is problem. It's the misleading of customers that is the problem. At least it is for me.
I spent $265 for nothing because of false advice given by Ray Morgan.

 

I won't go either way as I can probably debate both sides. Yes what the company did was not very well thought out. But to quote you if I advise you to go buy Windows Vista, will you. Like anything with software it changes and you have to make a decision to either do it or not. Ray advised you wrong and should be held accountable. He should never have advised anyone unless he knew for a fact it would not be changing. Which obviously that right there tells you the staff was not made aware of it. Because it did.

All I wish to tell you is don't take advise from any representative of any company you purchase products from. You find their customers and talk to them. Even the disgruntled ones. Then it's 'your' decision and only you are responsible for that.

 

I won't go either way as I can probably debate both sides. Yes what the company did was not very well thought out. But to quote you if I advise you to go buy Windows Vista, will you. Like anything with software it changes and you have to make a decision to either do it or not. Ray advised you wrong and should be held accountable. He should never have advised anyone unless he knew for a fact it would not be changing. Which obviously that right there tells you the staff was not made aware of it. Because it did.

All I wish to tell you is don't take advise from any representative of any company you purchase products from. You find their customers and talk to them. Even the disgruntled ones. Then it's 'your' decision and only you are responsible for that.

 

Well I purchased the blog add on, under the understanding that I was making a one time purchase and that I could use the blog software with my forum, for as long as I had an active forum license.

So therefore, I should be able to just upgrade my forum license to 4.0, at the cost of 4.0 and keep using the blog software that I already paid for...right?

Wrong!

I'm being told, I have to pay for the higher priced Suite package or no longer use the blog software with 4.0. As far as the CMS feature is concerned, I really don't need it, as I already use other solutions for that.

And now of course, it's pretty hard to just turn back and stop using the blog software, as many of our community members have utilized them and put a lot of effort into the content they've entered into them.

As far as comparing IPS versus vB goes, you can't really compare the true costs of each, unless you do so by looking at the estimated costs of each package going forward over a period of a number of years. Sure, the initial costs are similar, but it's the renewal costs that are very different.

In the case of vB, you can't really make any realistic cost estimates, because there is no assurance as to when the next version will come out. But I think you can be pretty sure that it will be sooner rather than later, given that Internet Brands only stands to make a lot of money by releasing version 5.0 and stand to make zero on renewals as long as they continue to develop and allow users to stay on 4.0.

Let's face it...what is Internet Brands incentive going forward to not move to 5.0, other than more future customer backlash?

Not much I'm afraid.

The reality is that there is very little transparancy on what you're getting by paying for vB version 4.0 and my belief is that once people relent and move to the license terms of version 4.0, that versions of vBulletin will start coming faster and faster, as that's what stands to bolster and benefit IB's bottom line.

It'll be like a kid who can't keep his hands out of the cookie jar.

Just you watch.

 

Well I purchased the blog add on, under the understanding that I was making a one time purchase and that I could use the blog software with my forum, for as long as I had an active forum license.

So therefore, I should be able to just upgrade my forum license to 4.0, at the cost of 4.0 and keep using the blog software that I already paid for...right?

Wrong!

I'm being told, I have to pay for the higher priced Suite package or no longer use the blog software with 4.0. As far as the CMS feature is concerned, I really don't need it, as I already use other solutions for that.

And now of course, it's pretty hard to just turn back and stop using the blog software, as many of our community members have utilized them and put a lot of effort into the content they've entered into them.

As far as comparing IPS versus vB goes, you can't really compare the true costs of each, unless you do so by looking at the estimated costs of each package going forward over a period of a number of years. Sure, the initial costs are similar, but it's the renewal costs that are very different.

In the case of vB, you can't really make any realistic cost estimates, because there is no assurance as to when the next version will come out. But I think you can be pretty sure that it will be sooner rather than later, given that Internet Brands only stands to make a lot of money by releasing version 5.0 and stand to make zero on renewals as long as they continue to develop and allow users to stay on 4.0.

Let's face it...what is Internet Brands incentive going forward to not move to 5.0, other than more future customer backlash?

Not much I'm afraid.

The reality is that there is very little transparancy on what you're getting by paying for vB version 4.0 and my belief is that once people relent and move to the license terms of version 4.0, that versions of vBulletin will start coming faster and faster, as that's what stands to bolster and benefit IB's bottom line.

It'll be like a kid who can't keep his hands out of the cookie jar.

Just you watch.

 

This thread has a good list of articles:

http://www.adminaddict.net/forum/vbulletin/another-vbulletin-article-4502/

As some say, I dont think that the price for a new customer is unfair or even a $130 upgrade - if the product comes out during my lifetime. Its the application of pricing to your different customers and new customers that is the screw up. Its like nobody gave this more than 10 minutes of thought.

License A's maintenance is current.
License B's maintenance expired yesterday.
Today I get an upgrade offer.
License A costs $130.
License B cost $190 when yesterday it would have cost $170. Why isn't it $170 today?

Why did Internet Brands do this? Did they somehow think they could sneak through an extra $20 in revenue on every customer whose license expired by blabbing the word savings 500 times? All this marketing doublespeak and little straight talk.

 

This thread has a good list of articles:

http://www.adminaddict.net/forum/vbulletin/another-vbulletin-article-4502/

As some say, I dont think that the price for a new customer is unfair or even a $130 upgrade - if the product comes out during my lifetime. Its the application of pricing to your different customers and new customers that is the screw up. Its like nobody gave this more than 10 minutes of thought.

License A's maintenance is current.
License B's maintenance expired yesterday.
Today I get an upgrade offer.
License A costs $130.
License B cost $190 when yesterday it would have cost $170. Why isn't it $170 today?

Why did Internet Brands do this? Did they somehow think they could sneak through an extra $20 in revenue on every customer whose license expired by blabbing the word savings 500 times? All this marketing doublespeak and little straight talk.