vBulletin 4 or vBulletin 5?

So what would happen to vB Germany forums if they said vB4 was EOL. Would you shut it down?

 

If IB did declare vB4 all of your customers would be up shit's creek without a boat, much less a paddle.
You don't strike me as the type to disregard your customers.
Suffice it to say there's a difference between your situation and that of a single customer with a single license purchased eons ago who continues to feel a sense of entitlement to something not included in the original purchase.

 

Im quite sure everyone wants it, and they will get it. As has been posted numerous times, it has to be fitted in with everything else, constantly ranting on about it, and attacking IB, wont change that.

 

I just don't understand why the numerous attacks against this product. If paul is saying your concerns are being addressed with vb4 then lets just wait to see what happens, I'm pretty sure all the forums software's have there own faults and people are going to alway's feel like they are not being heard but that does not mean their not, maybe its just a time problem or a money problem who knows whats being said or done behind the scene but those who work there

 

They are practically there right now.

I am not and there is an important reason for my words. Complete concentration on a new project. Plus, a declared EOL for vB4 would mean I am released of all responsibility to those customers for support, which we are still giving and it wouldn't be me stabbing them in the back.

As long as vB4 is not EOL, customers are entitled to a functioning and safe software, which is up to THEIR standards and they simply aren't getting it.

Most likely let someone else have it, who might want it. If there are no takers, then yes, the vB-G forums will be shut down. We are working on a completely new and better way for creating online communities. That is our answer to this miserable situation. We intend to just do something much better ourselves. It will take some time, before it is on the market, but we are moving forward.

When will vB 4.2.2 be released? You said this.

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/foru...4-2-1-discussion-thread?p=3970408#post3970408

"Not in a month and within a year"? And then the nice disclaimer at the end. Great answer.

That is about the most concrete answer anyone ever got about the release of vB4.2.2 and it isn't an answer really.

So, the fact vB4.2.2 is going to be released has not been posted numerous times at all. In fact, it hasn't been posted at all, Paul. If you can find where it is posted or announced officially on vB.com, that vB4.2.2 will be released in the near future (or at all), I'll be glad to be stood corrected.

And if I am right, as a suggestion and constructive feedback, it would be completely in IB's interest to show a lot more interest in their customer's welfare by informing the customers officially that vB4.2.2 is being worked on, what it will entail and when it will be released with a fairly concrete date and then do it. Break the old mold, because the current one isn't getting anyone very far at all.

What "everything else"? What is being worked on? And, if "it having to be fit to everything else" is causing an issue for the release, then explain it. Not here to me, but to your customers on vB.com. If "it" is true and you explain it, then there is much less of a problem and people will most likely understand and even thank you for the update. They might not be completely happy, but at least they won't have a reason to be completely upset and it would be a much better situation than what is happening now.

If IB were any other company, I'd say you were wrong. But, you are probably right.

And please, I don't rant, nor do I attack IB. I point out my opinion and as much as possible, base it on facts.

Up until this post in this thread not one person has argued against anything I have brought up, except for PSF's attempt to bring up the Microsoft analogy for "it is common place to produce crappy software", which is just not what customers expect.

BTW, Xenforo seems to be able to produce software with a pretty damn good quality. It was these two guys (among others) who made vBulletin so special way back when. So it is possible.

But, the first thing you need to do to create quality software is really care about what you give your customers as products and services and that "caring" is completely missing at vBulletin.com right now and has been for the most part of the last 3-4 years. Once that caring comes back, then things might change for the better and I or any other disgruntled customer can be much more positive.

Scott

 

I had many arguments with Paul in past but i fail to see why he is being attacked for the decisions IB managers taking. The issue has nothing to do with Paul or any other developer. It is directly related to bad management.

 

Who is attacking Paul? But you are right. Paul has very little to do with the current situation vB is in.

Scott

 

U.S. law says that all customers are legally entitled to is security patches.
There is no legal compliance obligation to update software for compatibility.
There are reasons it is done but none of them are related to law.

 

Who is talking about law? We are talking about customer expectations on product quality and meeting or even exceeding them, which is the best reason to produce quality by continually updating software.

Scott

 

Hehehe....since it says under PSF's occupation "Attorney", I knew he was a lawyer. I also knew it from other discussions he has participated in and mentioned it.

It is just a fact that if a company only followed laws, but still constantly produced shoddy, poor quality products, then that company would have most likely gone out of business quickly. Laws are only created to set certain standards for businesses, when their product quality, when poor, can become physically harmful to people. There is also consumer laws, which should protect customers from fraudulent activity of a company. But, there are no laws that say a company has to fulfill its customers expectations in terms of quality. You don't need laws for that, because it is just plain and common sense, if you want to be successful at your business.

Anyhooo.........back on topic.

As I said earlier, you can take vB4, but only IF Paul's bold comment about vB4.2.2 being released at some point is true AND it corrects the major issues vB4 currently has. One issue that I know of for sure is a missing PHP5.4/5.5 compatibility. If you want to use vB4 right now, you'll have to make sure your hosting or web server is running PHP5.3, which is officially EOL BTW.

And once you buy vB4, don't expect much more development than what you get now, because it seems IB is sticking all of their vBulletin development resources in vB5. You could see that as positive, as a very small group of customers are, and go with vB5 and hope one day that it will become a decent software.

Scott

 

As previously stated, there is no date I can give you at this time.
In fact, an exact date would never be given until probably a few days before.
Why ? Because people just complain if you say something, and then for whatever reason it changes.
Its much safer, and less hassle, just to say nothing, or be vague, and add disclaimers.

The dates I gave were correct, More than a month has now passed, and it will be less than a year.
If you want to cut it down even more, it would be safe to say in 2013 (usual disclaimers apply).

When I can tell you more, I will, continually asking wont make any difference.
A Project Manager has recently been assigned and will no doubt be making his plans.

Of course, it wouldnt make any difference if I did tell you - since you already stated you dont believe me.

 

How many times do you have to hear that a fix for the PHP versions is part of the next vB4 release before you believe it? It has already been released for 3.8x... and apart for some requested enhancements like a CKE edit, there are no "major" issues with vB4 preventing anyone from using is on a live forum. Even with the PHP issue, vB4.2.1 can be tweaked for compatibility for those unwilling to wait.

I hate vB5 too but that doesn't mean you have to slam vB3 and vB4 in the same breath. Let's at least try to keepo a little perspective...

 

To be totally honest? With Internet Brands? I have to see it first to believe it.

And where am I slamming vB4 (vB3 I never mentioned)? I actually suggested it can be a useful forum software (once it is PHP5.4 ready).

Fact is and very much in perspective, vB4 is lacking serious attention from Internet Brands. This PHP compatibility issue was reported over a year ago by customers and nothing was done in the two or three releases made since then. It's an issue that shouldn't even be one, if you consider what vBulletin is and how it should be developed. We have gotten a number of complaints about this issue on vB-G.com, I am sure vB.com got a number of them too. There are more customers on vB4 than vB3 and vB5 put together and yet vB3 got an update? Why is that? Most likely because practically all of IB's sites with vB forums are on vB3? I am just asking....

And if you deduct that answer too, you know what that means for the real vBulletin customers. It is irresponsible towards them and thus irresponsible for the business in general. The crux of all of this is, IB isn't dependent on vBulletin sales. I am positive, if that were the case, vBulletin would either be in much better shape, or already out of business.

@Paul M - I am not suggesting stating a specific date, but more or less an approximate time frame. And I am only suggesting to do this currently, because right now you guys need to be much more communicative to slow the current exodus of customers to other platforms.

As for the new PM. Him finally taking over is absolutely no reason to get all giddy. I am going to be very surprised, if Marjo changes the direction of vBulletin in any way positively. I expect he'll just be another PM, who gets the rug pulled out from underneath his feet at one major point and leaves like all the others in about 12 -24 months.

As long as the great disconnect continues between customers and IB's upper management, then no PM in the world will have a basis to get his job done well. If they leave him alone, give him the proper authority and just say, "Make us some profit", without any stupid time frames (like within 6 months) or any micromanagement, he just might have a chance.

Scott

 

I would be very surprised if this PM last more then a year before he/she "finds something better". That's the general excuse we hear for the turnover lately in management.

 

There should be a Lemon Law for software. I can understand delays when the devs are volunteers but these guys are paid, I hope good money, for their service so why aren't consumers getting good software and service that they paid for? If you bought a brand new car, paid cash and on delivery found out the steering wheel is on back order, sorry the tail light broke on installation and you will have to wait for the plant to make a new one and that will take time because they are now making next years model. This could take months or years. The car is still functional though. Use vise grips on the steering knob, and duct tape a flash light to the rear fender. Oh did we tell you that much of the functionality of the car doesn't work? The interior plant ran out of material so you only have half the upholstery done? Be patient, don't get upset. We have your money and are confident at some point in the future these items will be fixed.

Many of us who have been around a few years and worked with forums know full well bugs are part of the packages. To take several years to correct security breaches is unthinkable. But when the company promotes their goods as a GOLD RELEASE and take money for it, the consumer has the right to expect and demand a fully functional GOLD RELEASE. I understand and can be corrected on this but I was told there will not even be a Calendar function expected for vB5 for some time to come.

If you are a vB supporter please tell me (us) what exactly it is about this software that has the company promoting it as the world's leading community software? Inquiring minds would like to know. I don't see it and apparently more and more consumers don't either.

 

I don't think ANYONE is extolling the virtues of vB5. But that doesn't mean buying a license is a bad idea if you don't already own one. You can use your choice of vB3.8.8 or 4.2.1 for as longs as you want without any extra charge.

 

Just to clarify something, Marjo is not a PM as such. His title is Director of Technology.

 

But he is authorized to send and receive PMs.

 

So he might just be getting the authority he needs to be effective at IB. Great!

Hmm....but as I recall, didn't Fabian Schonholz have that title too?

No wait. He was Vice President of Technology. That title sounds more authoritative to me than "Director". And didn't Fabian promise a lot in terms of vB's direction and not get nearly enough done towards those goals? That was a real shame. I really hope Marjo can do better.

Marjo is also definitely the "lead" for both active vBulletin projects, according to Jira.



You even confirmed it.

So, it sounds to me like he is definitely the new responsible guy in town for vBulletin. When will he come out to start grabbing the ugly bull by the horns publicly? I'd really like to know if he even realizes the incredibly poor legacy of past "leaders" of vB and the broken promises he is taking over. But looking forward, if he can start getting to work with some publicly announced action with results to back them up, there might just be more people suggesting vB5 as a real alternative at some point in threads like this. (.....trying to bend this post back on topic....).

Scott